Ichimaru vs Tousen

[ADpowah]

What were the chapters in the Manga were Gin and Hits fighting?

[votehill4pres]

starts end of chapter 130

[Blackghost164]

Originally Posted by ADpowah

What were the chapters in the Manga were Gin and Hits fighting?

it starts on 130
Bleach 130 page 14 | One Manga

[NarutoSamaman]

Originally Posted by JAILTIME

Besides Gin was getting pushed hard by Hitsu for us to say thatTousen would likely lose

gin wasn't trying- he was fighting for the most part with his normal sword, and he admitted he underestimated hitsu but fact that gin is aizen's second in charge, has been around in SS for yonks and has probably been captain class for even longer than byakuya though they became captains at around the same time is a pretty good indication that gin could take out hitsu quite easily.

It's not saying much if Aizen's second in charge is about the same level as the weakest captain in SS which suggests even more that Gin is on a whole different level to Hitsu.

Regarding Tousen v Gin, I think Gin takes this as well. Just the way the manga has been heading thus far I think Gin when he gets serious will start owning alot of people. But more specifically main reasons I think he'd take Tousen are:

1) He's a more senior captain hence more experience and is shown to be a true genius as well. Seniority is a good indication of strength barring 1 or 2 exceptions ie: Urahara(gained bankai in 3 days) and Aizen

2) Tousen's bankai is a surprise type bankai, Gin would know how to survive Tousen's bankai if it was used since he's been around Tousen for such a long time ie: close his eyes and would probably know other ways of surviving as well.

[ADpowah]

Yeah that was how I remember it. Thanks for linking it.

To say that Gin was pushed by Hits is an overstatement. Gin simply walked away even when it was 2 on 1. Yes his arm was frozen but he clearly out-positioned Hits, in chess that move would have been called check mate. If Hits was completely sure that he could defeat Gin he could have ordered Matsumoto to take Hinamori away and given it his best shot.

[votehill4pres]

^ no time for that, matsumoto was doing all she could to stop gin blade, no time to let go of it grab hinamori and leave, i am sure gin is stronger dont get me wrong, he is older and more expierence, and since bleach is the opposite of naruto, as in expierience and age overcome youth, than i think gin wins,

anyway this match up is ichimaru vs tousen, i am sure all our questions about gin and hitsu will be covered in there more than likely up coming rematch, or should i say conclusion

[Righteous Judgment]

^Also there is no proof to say that Gin has been a captain for longer than Tousen. There is in fact reason to believe the opposite is true. We know aizen get's promoted after the vizard exodus and gin serves as Lt for an undisclosed period of time. Aizen was an Lt when he converted Tousen and not much is known about Tousen's history. With Kensai and Mashiro gone I don't think Tousen had to wait very long to become a captain

Originally Posted by ADpowah

Yeah that was how I remember it. Thanks for linking it.

To say that Gin was pushed by Hits is an overstatement. Gin simply walked away even when it was 2 on 1. Yes his arm was frozen but he clearly out-positioned Hits, in chess that move would have been called check mate. If Hits was completely sure that he could defeat Gin he could have ordered Matsumoto to take Hinamori away and given it his best shot.

I don't see how killing hinamori equates to Gin "out positioning" Hitsu. Gin goes for a shikai Headshot at point blank range and misses leaving him vulnerable for an attack from Hitsu

[gaarasenpu]

Tousen would surely win cuz' he's more experienced and he has more intelligence (i think) than ichimaru without mentioning his bankai

[Blackghost164]

Originally Posted by JAILTIME

I don't see how killing hinamori equates to Gin "out positioning" Hitsu. Gin goes for a shikai Headshot at point blank range and misses leaving him vulnerable for an attack from Hitsu

gin planned that attack out, if he didnt hit hitsu. then he needed hitsu to be focused on hinamori

but i actually agree with u, in a one on one no distractions kinda fight (like we hopefully see in the coming war) i think that hitsu. and gin are going to be pretty even

[NarutoSamaman]

^ I can't see Aizen's second in command being as strong as the weakest captain in SS.

[Blackghost164]

Originally Posted by NarutoSamaman

^ I can't see Aizen's second in command being as strong as the weakest captain in SS.

hitsu. potential is incredible, he's been given some time so there is no reason to think that he hasnt vastly improved, his bankai was incomplete imagine the improvement in his power when he finally masters it

look at the databooks and u will see how powerful hitsu. is capible of becoming

[votehill4pres]

Originally Posted by NarutoSamaman

^ I can't see Aizen's second in command being as strong as the weakest captain in SS.

who is coming up with the idea that hitsu is the weakest captain, seriously i dont understand, if u look at the databook he is like 4th, if u go by what we've seen so far the only time he lost was against aizen big surprise there, the other times he got hurt was because he was holding and locking up most of his power, the kid is damn strong, i dont believe he is the weakest captain at all, he is well rounded unlike some one like kenpachi or myuri, and he is serious when he fights, the kid is actually good, i mean he had the upper hand against the former 6th espade at the end of the fight, and i am sure he has more up his sleeves, and how the hell do u know gin is aizen second in command

[NarutoSamaman]

Originally Posted by Blackghost164

hitsu. potential is incredible, he's been given some time so there is no reason to think that he hasnt vastly improved, his bankai was incomplete imagine the improvement in his power when he finally masters it

look at the databooks and u will see how powerful hitsu. is capible of becoming

Yeah his potential is incredible and probably second to Ichigo, but it's hard to believe he could realise his potential in the space of 3-4 months considering he was struggling against a Non-Espada with his full bankai(albeit with a limiter though I find it hard to believe some of the other captains once they release would have had problems).

@votehill4press: After seeing Mayuri in action against Szayel I'm pretty sure he'd take Hitsu considering he knows all his techniques, he'd just find a way to neutralise them. I personally don't think he could take out Kenpachi but that's a matter of opinion.

Well he's 3rd at the most- but all the panels with Gin always behind Aizen, then Tousen is pretty suggestive that he is, also Gin met Aizen before Tousen, Gin was Aizen's VC should I still continue? Kubo's not going to say in as many words "Gin is Aizen's second in command" but it's pretty obvious he is.

When Hitsu fought the temp 6th Espada Hitsu had the upperhand eventually against the 6th Espada who's weaker than Grimm- the 6th Espada was fighting 3 other VC level soul reapers at the same time. The 6th Espada also got in a good shot against Hitsu before Hitsu surprised him after the 6th underestimated him.

[Fujita]

Hitsu strong, but he's just a kid at the moment, bet he's not much older than Gin in the flashbacks who is called a genius and beat a 3rd seat..Hitsu's a freaking captain, and a pretty strong one. I think Hitsu will end up being the strongest shinigami.

As for Gin vs Tousen, I don't know, people seem to be saying gin will win just because he's a better character. I think he might not be that strong...not saying hes weak but probably more a sneaky ruthless fighter than a powerhouse. I think he was in trouble against Hitsu, why else would he have tried to distract him by attacking that moronic girl..why didn't Aizen finish her off.

[Blackghost164]

Originally Posted by NarutoSamaman

Yeah his potential is incredible and probably second to Ichigo, but it's hard to believe he could realise his potential in the space of 3-4 months considering he was struggling against a Non-Espada with his full bankai(albeit with a limiter though I find it hard to believe some of the other captains once they release would have had problems).

ichigo learned bankai in three days

it took him under a day to learn shikai

and in the few days from when he entered SS he went from being as strong as a 3rd seat to being able to beat renji to being able to take kenpachi (without bankai) and then beating byakuya

u said it ureself that hitsu. potential is second only to ichigo so i think 3-4 months is enough time to drastically improve

and i dont know if this is true i forget the pages where they talk about what the limiters do and who gets limited but i think it brings u down to like a 3rd seat or something along those lines

when his limiter was released he was able to take the non-espada in one shot

and he held his own against luppi (the #6 espada), he was beating luppi, it wasnt an extremely easy fight but he was still winning

by that logic he is at least as strong as ichigo, which isnt weak and with the time he was given to improve and his potential he could be good enough to hold his own against aizens number two at this point

[NarutoSamaman]

Originally Posted by Blackghost164

ichigo learned bankai in three days

it took him under a day to learn shikai

and in the few days from when he entered SS he went from being as strong as a 3rd seat to being able to beat renji to being able to take kenpachi (without bankai) and then beating byakuya

u said it ureself that hitsu. potential is second only to ichigo so i think 3-4 months is enough time to drastically improve

and i dont know if this is true i forget the pages where they talk about what the limiters do and who gets limited but i think it brings u down to like a 3rd seat or something along those lines

when his limiter was released he was able to take the non-espada in one shot

and he held his own against luppi (the #6 espada), he was beating luppi, it wasnt an extremely easy fight but he was still winning

by that logic he is at least as strong as ichigo, which isnt weak and with the time he was given to improve and his potential he could be good enough to hold his own against aizens number two at this point

Yes Hitsu has potential but he's prob been a captain for a while now it's unrealistic that he suddenly becomes godly out of the blue. Gin was a genius 100+ years ago and has 100 years to master his technique. Ichigo is a freak, it's not realistic that Hitsu can improve out of the blue to a level like him.

As I mentioned before Gin is Aizen's second in command for a reason he's going to be hella strong when it comes to it. Hitsu is clearly weaker than the likes of Yamma and the other 3, he's also weaker than the likes of Byakuya. Personally I reckon he'd get beat by Kenpachi as well- ken beat the 5th Espada.

Reason Hitsu came out on top was because the 6th(not really since he's nowhere near as strong as Grim) was distracted and forgot about him which gave him ample opportunity to get his attack ready. But before that the 6th got a full body blow in- can you see that happening to the stronger captains? I think not- since that duel it hasn't even been 1 mth, probably closer to 5-6 days.

In the Hitsu v Gin fight Gin only used his shikai once, Hitsu was serious Gin wasn't that's saying something(Someone fighting with an unrealeased sword vs a normal sword and Gin wasn't trying to kill Hitsu but Hitsu was trying to kill Gin). Had Gin done something to Hitsu ie: killed him it would have thrown their entire plan in jeopardy as Gin would be under constant surveillance and would be locked up.

[Righteous Judgment]

Originally Posted by NarutoSamaman

In the Hitsu v Gin fight Gin only used his shikai once, Hitsu was serious Gin wasn't that's saying something(Someone fighting with an unrealeased sword vs a normal sword and Gin wasn't trying to kill Hitsu but Hitsu was trying to kill Gin). Had Gin done something to Hitsu ie: killed him it would have thrown their entire plan in jeopardy as Gin would be under constant surveillance and would be locked up.

-Hitsu attacked Gin unprovoked so Gin can claim self defense especially with both izuru and hinamori to coroborate.
-Gin tried to kill both hitsu and hina in one shot.
-Gin also busted his lt out of the baracks

clearly he doesn't care about the rules or repercussions, the only thing i can't make sense of is why didn't he allow byakuya and kenpachi to fight eachother? Best case scenario they both die, worst case scenario they both get injured either way it's win win for Aizen unless he has plans for them

[NarutoSamaman]

^ yep well self defense is plausible but considering Gin was already being questioned for his actions though that was temp forgotten because of the supposed ryoka invasion killing a captain wouldn't go down too well- he'd be monitored/be put on trial presumably.

Ultimately if they wanted to kill Hitsu if he was seen as a massive threat Aizen would have finished him off- Aizen doesn't view Hitsu as a threat even though they know his future potential thus illustrating to me that he's pretty far away from the Heavenly protector coming once in 300 years type level. Ultimately he's still only a kid and I think he needs another 5-10 years to get to the next level. Ultimately it's all speculation and Hitsu is an incredibly popular character so can't see him dying anytime soon but all things considered I highly doubt he's at Gin's level unless he gets an insane power up.

[Blackghost164]

Originally Posted by NarutoSamaman

Yes Hitsu has potential but he's prob been a captain for a while now it's unrealistic that he suddenly becomes godly out of the blue. Gin was a genius 100+ years ago and has 100 years to master his technique. Ichigo is a freak, it's not realistic that Hitsu can improve out of the blue to a level like him.

As I mentioned before Gin is Aizen's second in command for a reason he's going to be hella strong when it comes to it. Hitsu is clearly weaker than the likes of Yamma and the other 3, he's also weaker than the likes of Byakuya. Personally I reckon he'd get beat by Kenpachi as well- ken beat the 5th Espada.

Reason Hitsu came out on top was because the 6th(not really since he's nowhere near as strong as Grim) was distracted and forgot about him which gave him ample opportunity to get his attack ready. But before that the 6th got a full body blow in- can you see that happening to the stronger captains? I think not- since that duel it hasn't even been 1 mth, probably closer to 5-6 days.

In the Hitsu v Gin fight Gin only used his shikai once, Hitsu was serious Gin wasn't that's saying something(Someone fighting with an unrealeased sword vs a normal sword and Gin wasn't trying to kill Hitsu but Hitsu was trying to kill Gin). Had Gin done something to Hitsu ie: killed him it would have thrown their entire plan in jeopardy as Gin would be under constant surveillance and would be locked up.

i showed ichigo's growth to show an exagerated form of what hitsu. could possibly do

and he was still standing against someone ranked the number 6 espada which means they werent weak they were actually pretty strong, just not as strong as grimmjaw

and u keep claiming that gin was a genius 100 years ago but hitsu. was also said to be a genius at a young age, not only that but he became a captain way faster then gin, he is the reincarnation of some heavenly warrior so id say that his potential and his ultimant strenth surpass gins

also look at how much kenpachi improved since the ichigo fight

u can think what u want but i garantee that when hitsu. and gin fight again it will be a good fight, i dont know who will win but it will be close

[NarutoSamaman]

Originally Posted by Blackghost164

i showed ichigo's growth to show an exagerated form of what hitsu. could possibly do

and he was still standing against someone ranked the number 6 espada which means they werent weak they were actually pretty strong, just not as strong as grimmjaw

and u keep claiming that gin was a genius 100 years ago but hitsu. was also said to be a genius at a young age, not only that but he became a captain way faster then gin, he is the reincarnation of some heavenly warrior so id say that his potential and his ultimant strenth surpass gins

also look at how much kenpachi improved since the ichigo fight

u can think what u want but i garantee that when hitsu. and gin fight again it will be a good fight, i dont know who will win but it will be close

I think the SS arc had all kinds of inconsistencies with the powers of the captains also Kenpachi wasn't serious against Ichigo- he wanted a good fight and that's what he got.

Why I doubt Hitsu is on Gin's level is based on his recent showing against the 6th Espada. Yes he's strong- so Hitsu is probably on his level at the moment and the time from that fight and the current Hueco Mundo arc has been less than a week. The question you have to ask yourself is Gin on the 6th Espada's level considering he's a commander?

Regarding Hitsu becoming a captain quicker than Gin- Hitsu became a captain quicker than probably the majority of all the captains but that doesn't mean he's stronger. Gin even if he was captain class probably never opted to pass the captain exam as soon as he reached that level since it may have been more useful for their overall plan to continue as Aizen's VC.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but these are the things that still suggest he's still not at Gin's level

1) 2nd in command after Aizen

2) Genius 100 years ago meaning he's had 100 years to perfect his technique. Considering his growth rate is also astounding- 100 years of being in SS would make him unbelievably strong.

3) Hitsu's most recent fight against the 6th Espada which was far more recent than the other captain's fights in SS.

4) Aizen didn't kill Hitsu(this to me suggests he's no threat for the time being to his plans).

5) How cocky Gin was when he fought Hitsu- he never took him seriously even though he knew that he was a heavenly guardian and used his shikai only once. A shikai increases one's spiritual pressure by a considerable amount and Hitsu had his on the entire fight.

6)Hitsu hasn't mastered his bankai, Gin most definitely would have if he's been around for so long and is a genius.