Ichimaru vs Tousen

[Blackghost164]

Originally Posted by NarutoSamaman

I think the SS arc had all kinds of inconsistencies with the powers of the captains also Kenpachi wasn't serious against Ichigo- he wanted a good fight and that's what he got.

Why I doubt Hitsu is on Gin's level is based on his recent showing against the 6th Espada. Yes he's strong- so Hitsu is probably on his level at the moment and the time from that fight and the current Hueco Mundo arc has been less than a week. The question you have to ask yourself is Gin on the 6th Espada's level considering he's a commander?

Regarding Hitsu becoming a captain quicker than Gin- Hitsu became a captain quicker than probably the majority of all the captains but that doesn't mean he's stronger. Gin even if he was captain class probably never opted to pass the captain exam as soon as he reached that level since it may have been more useful for their overall plan to continue as Aizen's VC.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but these are the things that still suggest he's still not at Gin's level

1) 2nd in command after Aizen

2) Genius 100 years ago meaning he's had 100 years to perfect his technique. Considering his growth rate is also astounding- 100 years of being in SS would make him unbelievably strong.

3) Hitsu's most recent fight against the 6th Espada which was far more recent than the other captain's fights in SS.

4) Aizen didn't kill Hitsu(this to me suggests he's no threat for the time being to his plans).

5) How cocky Gin was when he fought Hitsu- he never took him seriously even though he knew that he was a heavenly guardian and used his shikai only once. A shikai increases one's spiritual pressure by a considerable amount and Hitsu had his on the entire fight.

6)Hitsu hasn't mastered his bankai, Gin most definitely would have if he's been around for so long and is a genius.

some shikai's increase the spiritual pressure, gins most likely doesnt do that, hitsu. im not so sure about but it probably does

also i think the only incosistency with hitsu. is the suprise hit he took from, he got hit because he was inexperianced and rushed in

but when he came back he owned luppi in one shot and wasnt significantly hurt, this fight also showed how he can think in a fight and how he can come up with a plan with pretty short notice, point being that he was stronger then the fillin 6th espada

also when his limiter release was released he immediately owned his arrancar, i think (not sure tho) that when VC and captains are limited they are limited to around the power of a third seated officer so he would have been significantly weaker in that fight then in a normal fight

ill agree with u that right now this looks like ichimaru is a way stronger shiginami but when this fight happens im going to say that kubo will show us hitsu. true power and he will ascend at least to gins level making this one of the closest, nonichigo, fights we've seen in bleach so far

[votehill4pres]

^ yea i see what ur saying, gin and hitsu were created by kudo to fight each other in a sense, they are two sides of the same coin, its a sure thing, and i am sure it has to be a pretty close fight to make any sense

[NarutoSamaman]

^ yeah it looks like that it may be heading that way but I don't think it's good writing if he is equal all things considered when they fight each other properly ie: bankai and all. Gin was a genius 100 years ago, if he trained for 100 years he should be uncatchable for Hitsu for some more time.

Also Hitsu was around the 6th Espada's level less than a week from where the Arc was before the flashbacks. So to jump from that to Gin's level will be outrageous in my eyes.

Somewhat like Ichigo beating Ulq but this is probably an even greater jump because I think Gin being a Commander should be able to beat the 4th Espada. And from Ichigo's strength he should be able to take Hitsu(prob be even before his mask but after his mask it should be ownage).

Ichigo defeating Ulq is somewhat more believable via his hollow powers or if he learns a new move in his bankai, anyways we'll have to see.

[votehill4pres]

^ true unless hitsu is the gohan of bleach and because he is the reincarnation of some great warrior it might be one of those things when he unlocks great power when he is in a death match, maybe a transformation, a none hallow transformation??? that would be cool

[Blackghost164]

^ agreed, all it takes is for hitsu. to tap into his potential

we've seen ichigo do this twice

in days he jumped from no spiritual power to that of a 3rd seat

then in 1 day he went from 3rd seat to captain

and in 3 days he went from low captain class to high captain class

hitsu. potential at this point is second only to ichigo's all it will take for him is during the fight to have a little convo with his swords spirit (just like itachi vs. kanpachi) and all of a sudden his potential is realized

shit, kubo could even have the heavenly warrior take over hitsu. body and own gin

my point is that there are way to many possibilies to count hitsu. out

also for those of u that say gin was a genius 100 years ago, it means nothing because u can hit a brick wall in shiginami powers and also, hitsu. can be more of a genius then gin,

if u look at it most of the captain class shiginami we've seen are considered genius's

hitsu.
gin
ichigo
urahara
kyouraku shunsui
ukitake
i forget his name by the 69 VC

honestly they call so may people genius's in the manga that it doesnt hold that much weight and one can still be a greater genius then the other

[NarutoSamaman]

^yes that's true lot of people have been hailed geniuses though none of them caught Aizen's eye which is saying alot, Gin also caught Ukitake's as well which says alot about how powerful he has the capability of becoming.

For me however- I won't think it's great writing if he realises his potential out of the blue(Hitsu) and it seems his potential probably is greater than Gin's(though that's not been guaranteed since we've had no indication of how powerful Gin's true potential is either). The Arrancar who fought Hitsugaya suggested he still needed some more time to get there ie: is just a kid.

Also the fact that Aizen didn't kill Hitsu even though he could have quite easily suggests to me that he doesn't view him as a threat at the moment. If Hitsu could realise his potential so quickly and become the heavenly guardian he'd be a massive threat to Aizen's plans as he'd be nearly on par with the strongest captains in SS if this heavenly guardian is as good as he's been prepped up to be. Aizen viewed Ichigo to be a threat and sent Yammi and Ulq to finish him off.

[Righteous Judgment]

Wow this thread is off topic
Anyways Tousen would wreck Gin thx to the recent spoilers

[NarutoSamaman]

^ who knows who'd win out of those 2 after all these new revelations but it sure explains why Aizen is so cocky that SS has no chance.

[Blackghost164]

Originally Posted by JAILTIME

Wow this thread is off topic
Anyways Tousen would wreck Gin thx to the recent spoilers

i dono if thats true, aizen and tousen were working together for alot longer then he was with gin yet gin became his right hand man, i think this shows the kind of power gin has

y was tousen so weak against kenpachi? is kenpachi really just that much of a monster?

[Righteous Judgment]

Originally Posted by Blackghost164

i dono if thats true, aizen and tousen were working together for alot longer then he was with gin yet gin became his right hand man, i think this shows the kind of power gin has

y was tousen so weak against kenpachi? is kenpachi really just that much of a monster?

Or tousen was just that much of a wind bag

[NarutoSamaman]

Originally Posted by Blackghost164

i dono if thats true, aizen and tousen were working together for alot longer then he was with gin yet gin became his right hand man, i think this shows the kind of power gin has

y was tousen so weak against kenpachi? is kenpachi really just that much of a monster?

the other question is- do we know if Tousen was first, there was about a 9 year time skip between Gin meeting Aizen and Tousen being revealed in the latest chapter. He could have joined more recently though still being part of SS longer than Aizen. But yeah I agree with Blackghost- Tousen seems to have been in on this for longer and Gin has been portrayed as 2nd in charge.

These chapters are just showing how Hax these guys really are-Gin and Tousen and is starting to explain what Aizen saw in these guys to ask them to join him.

[Blackghost164]

^ i forgot nine years had passed

but seriously tousen didnt even compare to kenpachi yet he has taken out multiple captains at this point, that to me is just ridiculous

[NarutoSamaman]

im curious as to how he took multiple captains out as well, he didn't use his bankai because when he used his bankai fox face knew when it got broken hence it must be visible to other people that whole darkness around the person it's being used against. We know Kenpachi is a beast but what's even more surprising is Tousen has got to be stronger now than he was back then- and he took out a couple of captains 100 years ago and couldn't have been part of SS for all that long.

[Ycagel]

Originally Posted by Blackghost164

^ i forgot nine years had passed

but seriously tousen didnt even compare to kenpachi yet he has taken out multiple captains at this point, that to me is just ridiculous

It's not that hard to believe. In the Kenpachi fight, Tousen had this whole preaching thing going on, even though Kenpachi was unable to hear him. He purposely held back from killing Kenpachi with his first strikes, thereby allowing Kenpachi to adapt to his Bankai and then win the battle. He simply failed to recognize Kenpachi's endurance and beastly power.

Against "them", he just pwned with his first strikes. No talking. No stalling. Just owning.

[NarutoSamaman]

Originally Posted by Ycagel

It's not that hard to believe. In the Kenpachi fight, Tousen had this whole preaching thing going on, even though Kenpachi was unable to hear him. He purposely held back from killing Kenpachi with his first strikes, thereby allowing Kenpachi to adapt to his Bankai and then win the battle. He simply failed to recognize Kenpachi's endurance and beastly power.

Against "them", he just pwned with his first strikes. No talking. No stalling. Just owning.

Yes, but he was still quick enough to get all of them without them realising. He should be considerably faster and stronger now, also he can't have used bankai on the vizard captains but still managed to cut them(why he didn't use bankai refer to post above).

Also from memory Kenpachi didn't even have his eye patch taken off and still did so much damage to Tousen- Tousen's spiritual pressure should have increased drastically once bankai was used but must have been on par with Ken's before eye patch to be cut so bad or slightly weaker.

[Righteous Judgment]

Originally Posted by NarutoSamaman

Yes, but he was still quick enough to get all of them without them realising. He should be considerably faster and stronger now, also he can't have used bankai on the vizard captains but still managed to cut them(why he didn't use bankai refer to post above).

Tousen went for the decisive blow back then thus they didn't have time to react. Tousen wanted to torure ken so he made the first 2 or maybe three attacks non decisive

Also from memory Kenpachi didn't even have his eye patch taken off and still did so much damage to Tousen- Tousen's spiritual pressure should have increased drastically once bankai was used but must have been on par with Ken's before eye patch to be cut so bad or slightly weaker.

Keep in mind for the most part releasing your sword increases the reiatsu it can use for attacking not the amount you can use for defense we have never seen someone's release prevent them from taking damage or reduce the amount of damage they take.

[NarutoSamaman]

Originally Posted by JAILTIME

Tousen went for the decisive blow back then thus they didn't have time to react. Tousen wanted to torure ken so he made the first 2 or maybe three attacks non decisiveKeep in mind for the most part releasing your sword increases the reiatsu it can use for attacking not the amount you can use for defense we have never seen someone's release prevent them from taking damage or reduce the amount of damage they take.

Ichigo wasn't able to cut Kenpachi- because his riatsui was too weak. Ichigo couldn't cut Aizen with bankai- Aizen stopped him with one finger and his finger didn't get cut.

There's a lot of examples like that- I think it's implied that if your spiritual pressure is strong enough you won't get cut by weaker enemies. I think I remember Byakuya saying the same thing to Kenpachi ie: you won't be able to cut me.

Re: Tousen not doing the killing blows at the start, but even once Ken kind of got used to the bankai the fact that he was still able to do what he did to Tousen is amazing. This is because Tousen's speed must have been incredible(aka his shunpou) to do the damage that he inflicted on all the captains and Lisa without them realising.

And surely Tousen's speed must be better in 100 years time, hence why it seems like his power was somewhat distorted against Ken.

[runic]

Why isn't anyone calling Tousen, 'Kaname' yet calling Ichimaru 'Gin' at the other hand?
Tousen really isn't famous enough..

[Righteous Judgment]

probably cause Aizen, Tousen, Gin flows better due to all names ending in th "n" sound