Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia - Page 2

**FireSight** · 11-08-2008, 06:37 PM

How about we put it simply..... its a complex issue, both sides are at fault.

Gathan · 11-08-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradjune1980

So every country that broke off after the Berlin wall fell should go back to Russia?

Are you retarded. You must be.

Georgia was recognized by the world community along with all the other breakaway countries.

And by the same token russia has been getting sanctioned for its interference with Gerogia for years by the world community. Just because your ignorant of what is happening in the world doesnt make it ok for russia to trample on another countries rights.

Its like a repeat of hitler in WW2 all over again.

No this would be the equivalent of England attacking us when we broke off from it and then say hypothetically that Canada sent in troops in to the America's to help us out.
What your essentially saying is that the Unstated States should still be part of England and under control of her majesty.
So you see your the one that has a double standard.
And no I'm not saying that every country should rejoin Russia and if you somehow got that your the one that is retarded.
They had a overwhelming vote in in South Ossetia to become Independent, and if they want to rejoin Russia that is their choose.
So say otherwise is to say that any place in the past that has broken off from any other country had no right to do so.

Bradjune1980 · 11-08-2008, 06:47 PM

^ Its not that simple, Russia has been systematically undermining the government of that country for years and instigating the break away groups in a very obvious way.

Giving passports to people not of your country and claiming they are your citizens because of that is about as bogus as you can get. And as obvious that you are creating a purposeful and very hallow reason to seize another country. Basically the invented the reason to invade. If they wanted to be Russian citizens they should have moved to Russia.

This is the second province Russia has basically seized for another group in this way in this country with the use ethnic cleansing.

This would be like the US giving every citizen of quebec a passport and at the first instance of one of them getting arrested we invade and take over. And then claiming it was legit cause we were defending our citizens by definition of having our passport.

I find it even more hilarious that the same people that bash the US for its invasion of Iraq are ok with russia doing it to a counrty, hell even seem to support Russia.

And even though half a year ago we found and removed tons of Yellow cake that iraq was not supposed to have no one even gave in that that was a show of legitimacy to the invasion of WMD's.

Russia is about as in the wrong as you can get, in an obvious pre planned invasion. You dont have that many troops on hand and across the border unless you had planned to do so from the start. Military ops like this do not happen just on a whim, as they are trying to spin an sell the mindless world masses. Russia has been planning to do this for a while, and the timing was perfect with everyons attention elswhere.

Quote:

No this would be the equivalent of England attacking us when we broke off from it and then say hypothetically that Canada sent in troops in to the America's to help us out.
What your essentially saying is that the Unstated States should still be part of England and under control of her majesty.
So you see your the one that has a double standard.
And no I'm not saying that every country should rejoin Russia and if you somehow got that your the one that is retarded.
They had a overwhelming vote in in South Ossetia to become Independent, and if they want to rejoin Russia that is their choose.
So say otherwise is to say that any place in the past that has broken off from any other country had no right to do so.

Not even close to the same thing. It would be more like the Civil War which is the best example of sovereignty and succession you can find. The same thing applies to Ossetia when it broke off with the whole of Georgia. Try finding a new well to go to.

The vote was only done by those that were in favor of succeeding, funny how you did not take into account the counter vote that showed the opposite. And the vote itself was not recognized by the UN and other bodies cause it was so bogus.

And BTW im not the one saying that countries that broke off should still be a part of the country they broke off from. You are the one that implied that gerogia should still be a part of Russia.

Gathan · 11-08-2008, 06:57 PM

^I'm not saying that your completly wrong about that because I do agree alot with what your saying.
But at the same time I do not see it as Russia seizing part of another country because South Ossetia had already voted to break off from that country.
Not that I agree though with them attacking the rest of Georgia because I do not, but I do agree with them sending troops into South Ossetia to aid them in their campaign for sovereignty.

Bradjune1980 · 11-08-2008, 07:05 PM

^ Campaign for sovereignty when they have been forcing the native Georgians out with a campaings of ethnic cleansing in two reagions for the last 14 years. Yes A few hundred thousand people forced out of their lands by another group then saying they want to form there own nation, while being backed and pushed by another country to do so.

Russian has been doing nothing by undermine that coutntry, they have been trying to get help for years. And tried to join nato to get away from Russia.

Its like knowing that a kid next door is getting abused then saying to the police well we didnt want to get involved, after the kid ends up dead.

GaaranGaara · 11-08-2008, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradjune1980

Unofficially? that means its not part of Russia. Just because they gave passports and visas to the citizens does not make the Russian citizens. So all of Russia's claims are Bull.

Everyone in this thread needs to go back to school and be re taught what Sovereignty means. When Georgia broke off Ossetia was part of that break off and part of Georgia.

Anyone that knows anything about military operations could see that this was planned for months on russias part. They have also been giving weapons to the Ossetian's, and helped the ethnic cleansing in the norther province that was stolen from Georgia. They have also had public officials targeted for assassination by Russia.

Georgia had every right to send troops into its own province as a Sovereign nation. Russia has no reason to be in that area at all. Plus they have now advanced beyond the borders of that region and are taking other cities.

Your making the victims of Russian aggression, the perpetrators its sick.
Anyone in favor of Russian aggression needs to get a clue.

The double standards of people are sickening.

And you're making it seem like everybody in this thread are supporting Russia. Which means you need to go to school and learn to read

Bradjune1980 · 11-08-2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaaranGaara

And you're making it seem like everybody in this thread are supporting Russia. Which means you need to go to school and learn to read

I did not say everyone in the thread. And you you are implying I said everyone in the thread.

Back at you on learning to read.

Only reason you would be upset about this to respond in this way is if i hit a nerve.

**FireSight** · 11-08-2008, 10:37 PM

Hey Brad, learn your history. In the US, during and after the revolution, we killed and deported and british, PART-british, and any british sympathizers.... not all of them, but a very large number of them. While this really does suck, its a fact of history that this is basically how territory changes hands. The people who support what the local leaders want get to stay. The others are forced out to prevent any problems from occuring. Russia may have had an active hand in this, but they couldn't have built their base of support up from nothing as rapidly as they did. The support was already there, they just gave it a nudge and promised to back up the area when something bad DID happen. Had the Georgian government made any attempt, they could have prevented the split from the very begining.... instead they let it get to a point where they decided that military force was required, and the allies of South Ossetia retaliated.

X2thaU · 11-08-2008, 11:12 PM

wtf is part-british =|.

Bradjune1980 · 12-08-2008, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireSight

Hey Brad, learn your history. In the US, during and after the revolution, we killed and deported and british, PART-british, and any british sympathizers.... not all of them, but a very large number of them. While this really does suck, its a fact of history that this is basically how territory changes hands. The people who support what the local leaders want get to stay. The others are forced out to prevent any problems from occuring. Russia may have had an active hand in this, but they couldn't have built their base of support up from nothing as rapidly as they did. The support was already there, they just gave it a nudge and promised to back up the area when something bad DID happen. Had the Georgian government made any attempt, they could have prevented the split from the very begining.... instead they let it get to a point where they decided that military force was required, and the allies of South Ossetia retaliated.

Ignorance must be bliss, when did i say anything about deportation at the end of the American revolution? So I'm your impinging my knowledge of history by saying I misrepresented or was inaccurate something I never even talked about. Are you kidding me? The whole point of the war was to get rid of the British. So when the war was won of corse British were exppelled.

As for part-british you are showing your ignorance since most of the people in the US were british citizens! Anyone they deported could fall under this catagory you invented. Your twisted thinking knows no bounds. As for sympathizers many were tried on war crimes of aid and comfort to the enemy. Benedict Arnold ring a bell!

As for the support being there, you need to read more news articals. Since the movement of troops was detected over the last few months in conjuction with the rebuilding of an old railway line. And the numbers of troops positioned were far in excess of what was needed. As well as the positioning of part of the Black Sea Russsian naval forces. You clearly dont know anything about miliary OPP's. Since its something plainly obvious. Esp now that Russia has moved past the contested zone and is taking cities outside of it.

Also the reaction time of the forces and the speed of the supposed couter attack make no sense. It should have taken a day or two to send in large numbers that they did.

ALLIES? Know you are showing ignorance again on how soveregntiy works. As well as respect for what the census of the population of ossetia was before it started being a terrorist/rebel enclave. And why it was part of the country of Georgia proper. Not to mention that it was the borde it had before Russia took it over.

Everything Russia is doing is illegal, the reason that russia had military in georgia in the first place was because of a Previous Russian invasion in 1992 that 14 years of supposed self rule and such was only there cause russia invaded and got involved in another countries affairs. God forbid if the USA does something like that.

**FireSight** · 12-08-2008, 01:46 AM

Actually, no, I am quite correct when I refer to part-british. The american colonialists didn't consider themselves to be british anymore, for the most part. Those who had a single british parent were persecuted as much as the torries, despite the fact that most of our history texts try to gloss over it.

Oh, and a fair number of the colonialists were actually of dutch decent, the british just took over the dutch colonies at some point.... another thing that is glossed over in the history texts.

But let me make myself clear. I have no issue with one group of people killing another group. It may be the WRONG group killing the WRONG people, but I'm actually in favor of 95+% of the world population dying in order to prevent species extinction, so you really won't find much sympathy from me. Yes, this means I'm a sociopathic asshole. I have my reasons. But either way, whining about this on an anime forum isn't doing you much good.

But now I ask you this. The invasion of South Ossetia by Georgian troops must have required a lot of effort to gather the supplies for, their own troop movements, and military units being activated, and tactics planned, MONTHS in advance as well. What are the odds that Russia may have gotten wind of this before it happened?

Remember that not everything is as black and white as the media likes to make it.

Bradjune1980 · 12-08-2008, 02:09 AM

^ actually the media doesnt seem to care all the much about this.

And You are wrong about your warping of history, the people of the 13 colonies were British citizens regardless of ancestry.

Moving on from that how about you tell us the number of single parents and the massive numbers you speak of that are nothing but unproven conjecture. The stink of untruth and half truths is strong with this one.

Then you should start with yourself if you think there needs to be less people on this planet. But like most with that stance you really mean kill everyone but yourself right? Cause I'm sure by whatever logic you use to come to that conclusion is about the same as most genocide bent people.

Nothing is black and white, but this has Russia with the darker shade of gray clearly.

**FireSight** · 12-08-2008, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradjune1980

Then you should start with yourself if you think there needs to be less people on this planet. But like most with that stance you really mean kill everyone but yourself right?

Actually, if the world finally recognized the requirement for the population to be lowered, and asked for volunteers to go willingly, I'd be among the first. But this doesn't matter in this discussion, and if we want to go into my reasoning, should go into the debates section.

I'm not suicidal. I just understand the idea of self sacrifice for a higher purpose.

Bradjune1980 · 12-08-2008, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireSight

Actually, if the world finally recognized the requirement for the population to be lowered, and asked for volunteers to go willingly, I'd be among the first. But this doesn't matter in this discussion, and if we want to go into my reasoning, should go into the debates section.

I'm not suicidal. I just understand the idea of self sacrifice for a higher purpose.

If it didnt belong in the discussion why did you bring it up in the first place. And then say it doesnt matter. Answer is you got cornered and are coping out. Higher cause my ass. Sounds no different then a terrorist mantra and self justification of stupid ideology.

Also as to the military build up of georgian forces, the country is the size of south carolina, they dont need to build up anything since they could have forces in place in less then and hour. But that being besides the point the forces that went in to ossetia were not large scale invasion forces. And most of the forces that where there in the operation had been in place for years, since georgia still ran most of the land area of south ossetia outside of the cities. And even then many cities in ossetia were ethnically georgian. Again showing you dont understand the situation in that area.

So we have this to look at,

Georgia runs and maintains large portions od Ossetia, making the claim of self governace of the region balony to begin with. If the land that was actually controlled by the Ossetians Succeded it be much much smaller then it is. They gave passports to Ossetian ethnic group. The georgians living there did not have those passports.

Well to cut it short its a lot of BS on the part of russia and the ossetian illegal goverment.

its all about stealing land.

**FireSight** · 12-08-2008, 02:27 AM

Ok, and the question stands... why do we care? War is GOING to happen, conquest is GOING to happen. It has happened for countless millenia. Only the scale of conquest changes. This is nothing new, nothing that has not been seen before. Even with civilian casualties, its still low on the scale of things.

Hell, the US occupation of Iraq alone has seen over 4 MILLION civilian casualties, which are almost completely ignored by our media and our government..... thats nearly as many casualties as Sadaam created in his entire reign. And yet we whine over a few, what, hundred, or thousand casualties when Russia invades another nation?

Yes, its bad, but in the scale of things, even the CURRENT scale of things, its small. Its almost nothing.

Bradjune1980 · 12-08-2008, 02:33 AM

^ source on the 4 million,

Georgia 'overrun' by Russian troops as full-scale ground invasion begins | Mail Online
^yeah russia clearly was only worried about the Osettians. (sarcasm)

Are you retarded, War is the last resort of politics and nations, Russia bypassed every other option and went right for war and conquest.

And i think we learned our lesson in WW2 when we let a petty leader like hitler do what he wanted, and now putin is the same type of person doing the same thing while europe puts on a blindfold amd sticks a dick up its ass just like they did with hitler.

**FireSight** · 12-08-2008, 02:38 AM

Just Foreign Policy - Iraqi Death Estimate

an estimated 1.2 million dead, most of them not reported due to the state of the nation and the lack of real control the new government has.... and the fact that the occupying forces has stated that they will not do a body count for anyone but their own forces. Thats people DEAD. There are usually a far larger number of people INJURED for every person who dies. And by definition, anyone injured enough that they cannot function normally is a casualty (though the media typically only uses the word for the dead). That means, given statistical averages, at least 4 million people have been killed or badly injured since the occupation began.

Bradjune1980 · 12-08-2008, 03:37 AM

^ Hahaha wow, that is the worst source ever. Bad math and basically admitting they are making the numbers up.

They also attribute any violent death to the war, weather it was related or not. And the PDF files for the study are 404ed.

The study says we have no concrete evidence of anything but we think its this number, and base it all of of information with no substance or verification.

I can make up numbers too. Since to these people the truth is simply what you think it is, and you can make shit up to suit yourself and to make your position right.

Righteous Judgment · 12-08-2008, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradjune1980

^ source on the 4 million,

Georgia 'overrun' by Russian troops as full-scale ground invasion begins | Mail Online
^yeah russia clearly was only worried about the Osettians. (sarcasm)

Are you retarded, War is the last resort of politics and nations, Russia bypassed every other option and went right for war and conquest.

And i think we learned our lesson in WW2 when we let a petty leader like hitler do what he wanted, and now putin is the same type of person doing the same thing while europe puts on a blindfold amd sticks a dick up its ass just like they did with hitler.

Because Georgia resorted to violent means first Russia has enough of a legitimate "peacekeeping" excuse to be there.

I think anyone would have known that Georgia moving on Ossetia would have brought them in conflict with Russia and they did it anyway now you want a bunch of surrounding nations to plunge their people into what could very well become WW3? I think your being a bit premature by calling puttin the next hitler here.

11-08-2008, 06:37 PM	#21
FireSight Chosen of Slaanesh Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,529 My Mood: Rep Power: 14	Re: Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia How about we put it simply..... its a complex issue, both sides are at fault. __________________ Fallout 3 Anthem Oh, beautiful, for gray-ash skies For guns moun-ted on chains For scor-pi-ons thrash-ing about On ir-radi-ated plains! AMERICA, AMERICA! God sent His Hell to thee! 'Twas for thy good, And so we should Glow bright for all to see!

11-08-2008, 06:57 PM	#24
Gathan ANBU Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,570 Rep Power: 9	Re: Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia ^I'm not saying that your completly wrong about that because I do agree alot with what your saying. But at the same time I do not see it as Russia seizing part of another country because South Ossetia had already voted to break off from that country. Not that I agree though with them attacking the rest of Georgia because I do not, but I do agree with them sending troops into South Ossetia to aid them in their campaign for sovereignty.

11-08-2008, 07:05 PM	#25
Bradjune1980 Special Jounin Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Moving to Florida soon! Posts: 3,384 My Mood: Rep Power: 20 Total Awards: 2	Re: Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia ^ Campaign for sovereignty when they have been forcing the native Georgians out with a campaings of ethnic cleansing in two reagions for the last 14 years. Yes A few hundred thousand people forced out of their lands by another group then saying they want to form there own nation, while being backed and pushed by another country to do so. Russian has been doing nothing by undermine that coutntry, they have been trying to get help for years. And tried to join nato to get away from Russia. Its like knowing that a kid next door is getting abused then saying to the police well we didnt want to get involved, after the kid ends up dead. __________________ http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/in...itle=Main_Page Go here to read japanese light novels. They are the source of many of the shows you love.

11-08-2008, 10:37 PM	#28
FireSight Chosen of Slaanesh Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,529 My Mood: Rep Power: 14	Re: Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia Hey Brad, learn your history. In the US, during and after the revolution, we killed and deported and british, PART-british, and any british sympathizers.... not all of them, but a very large number of them. While this really does suck, its a fact of history that this is basically how territory changes hands. The people who support what the local leaders want get to stay. The others are forced out to prevent any problems from occuring. Russia may have had an active hand in this, but they couldn't have built their base of support up from nothing as rapidly as they did. The support was already there, they just gave it a nudge and promised to back up the area when something bad DID happen. Had the Georgian government made any attempt, they could have prevented the split from the very begining.... instead they let it get to a point where they decided that military force was required, and the allies of South Ossetia retaliated. __________________ Fallout 3 Anthem Oh, beautiful, for gray-ash skies For guns moun-ted on chains For scor-pi-ons thrash-ing about On ir-radi-ated plains! AMERICA, AMERICA! God sent His Hell to thee! 'Twas for thy good, And so we should Glow bright for all to see!

11-08-2008, 11:12 PM	#29
X2thaU Akatsuki Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 8,218 Rep Power: 48 Total Awards: 2	Re: Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia wtf is part-british =\|. __________________

12-08-2008, 01:46 AM	#31
FireSight Chosen of Slaanesh Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,529 My Mood: Rep Power: 14	Re: Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia Actually, no, I am quite correct when I refer to part-british. The american colonialists didn't consider themselves to be british anymore, for the most part. Those who had a single british parent were persecuted as much as the torries, despite the fact that most of our history texts try to gloss over it. Oh, and a fair number of the colonialists were actually of dutch decent, the british just took over the dutch colonies at some point.... another thing that is glossed over in the history texts. But let me make myself clear. I have no issue with one group of people killing another group. It may be the WRONG group killing the WRONG people, but I'm actually in favor of 95+% of the world population dying in order to prevent species extinction, so you really won't find much sympathy from me. Yes, this means I'm a sociopathic asshole. I have my reasons. But either way, whining about this on an anime forum isn't doing you much good. But now I ask you this. The invasion of South Ossetia by Georgian troops must have required a lot of effort to gather the supplies for, their own troop movements, and military units being activated, and tactics planned, MONTHS in advance as well. What are the odds that Russia may have gotten wind of this before it happened? Remember that not everything is as black and white as the media likes to make it. __________________ Fallout 3 Anthem Oh, beautiful, for gray-ash skies For guns moun-ted on chains For scor-pi-ons thrash-ing about On ir-radi-ated plains! AMERICA, AMERICA! God sent His Hell to thee! 'Twas for thy good, And so we should Glow bright for all to see!

12-08-2008, 02:09 AM	#32
Bradjune1980 Special Jounin Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Moving to Florida soon! Posts: 3,384 My Mood: Rep Power: 20 Total Awards: 2	Re: Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia ^ actually the media doesnt seem to care all the much about this. And You are wrong about your warping of history, the people of the 13 colonies were British citizens regardless of ancestry. Moving on from that how about you tell us the number of single parents and the massive numbers you speak of that are nothing but unproven conjecture. The stink of untruth and half truths is strong with this one. Then you should start with yourself if you think there needs to be less people on this planet. But like most with that stance you really mean kill everyone but yourself right? Cause I'm sure by whatever logic you use to come to that conclusion is about the same as most genocide bent people. Nothing is black and white, but this has Russia with the darker shade of gray clearly. __________________ http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/in...itle=Main_Page Go here to read japanese light novels. They are the source of many of the shows you love.

12-08-2008, 02:27 AM	#35
FireSight Chosen of Slaanesh Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,529 My Mood: Rep Power: 14	Re: Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia Ok, and the question stands... why do we care? War is GOING to happen, conquest is GOING to happen. It has happened for countless millenia. Only the scale of conquest changes. This is nothing new, nothing that has not been seen before. Even with civilian casualties, its still low on the scale of things. Hell, the US occupation of Iraq alone has seen over 4 MILLION civilian casualties, which are almost completely ignored by our media and our government..... thats nearly as many casualties as Sadaam created in his entire reign. And yet we whine over a few, what, hundred, or thousand casualties when Russia invades another nation? Yes, its bad, but in the scale of things, even the CURRENT scale of things, its small. Its almost nothing. __________________ Fallout 3 Anthem Oh, beautiful, for gray-ash skies For guns moun-ted on chains For scor-pi-ons thrash-ing about On ir-radi-ated plains! AMERICA, AMERICA! God sent His Hell to thee! 'Twas for thy good, And so we should Glow bright for all to see!

12-08-2008, 02:33 AM	#36
Bradjune1980 Special Jounin Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Moving to Florida soon! Posts: 3,384 My Mood: Rep Power: 20 Total Awards: 2	Re: Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia ^ source on the 4 million, Georgia 'overrun' by Russian troops as full-scale ground invasion begins \| Mail Online ^yeah russia clearly was only worried about the Osettians. (sarcasm) Are you retarded, War is the last resort of politics and nations, Russia bypassed every other option and went right for war and conquest. And i think we learned our lesson in WW2 when we let a petty leader like hitler do what he wanted, and now putin is the same type of person doing the same thing while europe puts on a blindfold amd sticks a dick up its ass just like they did with hitler. __________________ http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/in...itle=Main_Page Go here to read japanese light novels. They are the source of many of the shows you love.

12-08-2008, 02:38 AM	#37
FireSight Chosen of Slaanesh Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,529 My Mood: Rep Power: 14	Re: Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia Just Foreign Policy - Iraqi Death Estimate an estimated 1.2 million dead, most of them not reported due to the state of the nation and the lack of real control the new government has.... and the fact that the occupying forces has stated that they will not do a body count for anyone but their own forces. Thats people DEAD. There are usually a far larger number of people INJURED for every person who dies. And by definition, anyone injured enough that they cannot function normally is a casualty (though the media typically only uses the word for the dead). That means, given statistical averages, at least 4 million people have been killed or badly injured since the occupation began. __________________ Fallout 3 Anthem Oh, beautiful, for gray-ash skies For guns moun-ted on chains For scor-pi-ons thrash-ing about On ir-radi-ated plains! AMERICA, AMERICA! God sent His Hell to thee! 'Twas for thy good, And so we should Glow bright for all to see!

12-08-2008, 03:37 AM	#38
Bradjune1980 Special Jounin Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Moving to Florida soon! Posts: 3,384 My Mood: Rep Power: 20 Total Awards: 2	Re: Georgia attempts to retake South Ossetia ^ Hahaha wow, that is the worst source ever. Bad math and basically admitting they are making the numbers up. They also attribute any violent death to the war, weather it was related or not. And the PDF files for the study are 404ed. The study says we have no concrete evidence of anything but we think its this number, and base it all of of information with no substance or verification. I can make up numbers too. Since to these people the truth is simply what you think it is, and you can make shit up to suit yourself and to make your position right. __________________ http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/in...itle=Main_Page Go here to read japanese light novels. They are the source of many of the shows you love. Last edited by Bradjune1980; 12-08-2008 at 03:38 AM.