Oro vs 4T Naruto

[Goraishi]

First my post, it takes a conscious to determine what is threatening, and what isn't. As well as how to deal with such. I.E. Sakura wasn't very threatened so all she a tail smack ( and possible almost tail piercing her ). Mostly, due to drawing on Naruto's memories and hell having a front seat to what he sees, feels, etc. If it/naruto knew that Yamato could seal it, you can bet that Yamato would have been treated with more 'destructive intent' than against Oro.

Onto other posts,

It pretty much was holding back. Otherwise, worse things than the Super-hadoken would have been released. Also, it wouldn't have been sitting there, doing the 'I'm not gonna move unless you make me move' approach.

Genjutsu- good luck getting these to work. As these require control of the opponent's chakra flow. The chakra flow being 'active' would be kyuubi's and it is shitloads harder to control youkai chakra than human chakra unless the jutsu/whatever has neiner-ness behind it ( aka the sharingan and Jiraiya's and Yamato seals ).

Sealing techniques - Sorry dude. It's weakness is not sealing technique in general. The sealing technique that affect Kyuubi have the 'neiner-ness' properties in them. The only real confirmed weaknesses ( so far ) for the kyuubi-itself it has would be 1st Hokage's controlling jutsu, the Death God summon, the Sharingan, naruto's death, and specific messes with the seal.

Ninjutsu- The ninjutsu needs to have durability comparable to Oro's Kusanagi sword. Also, the power behind would have to be more than the piercing ability of Kusanagi sword. In the meantime, the jutsu itself will be attacked directed and indirectly by the kyuubi chakra. Which means, good luck. You are gonna need it unless it is the necessary 'neiner-ness' properties.

In 4tailed mode, naruto's conscious is unconscious while the Kyuubi is conscious. Hence, kyuubi being in control.

Also, what emperical said made sense. Though it might have been confusing. Essentially, Oro did not present much of a threat to 4TN so it decides to 'take its time' with Oro.

In regards to 4TN Yamato and Sakura, if it wanted to eliminate her via not holding back it woulda done much more than a tail smack to put her in her place. Also, the wood thing has 'neiner-ness' properties to it. It was wondering WTH is this shit that is able to restrain well and successfully ( if even for several seconds ).

"playtimes over" because Oro finally has found someone/thing that can actually entertain him, but he isn't able to continue due to 4TN beign restrained AS WELL AS his body rejecting him. Also, 'for holding back' please explain why he decided he wanted to put as much distance as possible between them especially since the skewer attempt failed ( for the most part ).

Also, Oro does have a time limit ( body rejection ).

Also, it was more like 1k clones with the chakra part being having 100 ( was it 100 or 1k ? ) times more chakra ( not power ) than Kakashi. It takes quite a bit of Chakra reserve to defend against kakazu as well as put a Raikiri out of his ass to take a heart. Sasuke may have less chakra than Naruto, but he is a more well-rounded person than Naruto. Plus, the main thing behind his winning was the hax sharingan and Naruto doing fight after fight after fight.

I would go more into the Conscious-ness point, but I would take to take the 'asshole approach' to get the point across.

[Yedi]

Originally Posted by Blackghost164

^ genjutsu, sealing technique's, powerful ninjutsu

im sure oro had those techniques up his sleeve he just chose not to use them

Genjutsu wouldn't work since which chakra system would he try to affect? the kyubi cloak doesn't have a chakra system.

Would Sealing technique really work? in my opinion it would only seal a part of the chakra and not the actual person whom omits the chakra, aka Naruto.

Powerful techniques? In my opinion his most powerful technique is the sword of Kusenagi, or else he wouldn't use it as he does. The sword didn't even scratch the 4th tail, and it was known to be able to pierce a "diamond body" aka the third hokage. So no no matter which jujutsu he would use he wouldn't be able to scratch the 4th tail.

[Emperical]

this is based on the fact that we know the kyuubi's weakness is being sealed, kakashi did it, yamato did it and naruto is severely weakend after that happens

I'll agree with you on that, however you must get close enough to use a sealing technique and the technique has to be extremely strong to seal him at this level, it is a weakness but not many can exploit it.

second i say genjutsu since it messes up the chakra flow and attacks the mind, normally thats what works on something thats strong and dumb

genjutsu works on the mind so lets compare it to something in real life that is similar; mind control. You can't mind control something that reacts off of instinct because there is no conscious thoughts to exploit.
genjutsu is useless against 4t Naruto because of this.

finally a strong enough ninjutsu would be able to hurt naruto, its the same with all his other tails if something with stronger chakra then his cloak hits him then it will still break through his defenses

Name one thing Oro has that can break through his defense, remember by both of our logic to break through the attack has to be stronger than the chakra of the demon king.

i dont understand, destructive intent means it wants to destroy anything that gets in its way, its not holding back instead it is going at whatever is infront of it with full power and trying to tear it apart

Destructive intent is a way of saying by instinct it destroys everything near. A fair comparison would be a rabid dog.

that makes no sense, u have to be concious to supress ure power or match someone elses effort, we've both agreed he isnt concious

I never said Naruto was supressing his power, he just doesn't see Oro as a threat and because of that he won't use the full extent of his power.

also he would have gone at sakura with all he had if yamato hadnt have stopped him

He hit her with his tail, she was incapacitated after that, considering what he was doing with Oro slowly reaching out to hit her with any appendage is not using any effort what so ever and can be compared to swatting a mosquito that is annoying you.

Naruto 296 page 08 | One Manga

he is turning to hit her

I see him swatting her with his tail, he didn't move other than that.

Naruto 296 page 10 | One Manga

he's turned towards her but sealed by wood

Hes standing as he is trapped by the wood, ther is no indication of him turning towards her like you describe in either the anime or the magna. This is speculation based upon your imagination and no feasible ideas are used to support this.

he wasnt holding back

Since he is obviously shoving his hands through the ground to grab her, ripping her in half and shooting concentrated chakra at her torn remains you win this one, he definitely didn't hold back there. *rolls eyes*

Naruto 296 page 09 | One Manga

oro on the other hand was holding back hence y he says "play times over and then laughs"

So you're telling me that when he threw his wall of snakes, an incredibly potent defense to SAVE HIS LIFE and one of his stronger, if not strongest attack he wasn't trying?
Well in that case he shouldn't have needed the sound village to help him execute his invasion of the leaf village.

naruto only has more raw power and maybe more chakra (thats unproven), but raw power isnt everything, like i said before he can be sealed, he can be trapped, physically or in genjutsu, and he can still be hurt by high level ninjutsu

Theres nothing to argue here, although the effectiveness of the said techniques is greatly diminished because of the raw power he holds.

have u forgotten that oro was hailed as a genius, he is a master of jutsu like his teacher the 3rd and he is a monster

You know what the perks of him being a monster is? He can recover from most fatal wounds. I don't care if Oro is smart, if he doesn't have the power to break through Naruto's defense he can't hurt him.

this is naruto, and raw power isnt everything, look at shikamaru and how he wins against stronger opponents using just battle tactic, oro is very capible of out manuvering and out playing a dumb brute, especially with no time limit

We arn't talking about someone who is slightly stronger than Oro here, the power gap is absolutely massive in terms of raw power.
Oro can't hurt Naruto and by Oro's own admittance Naruto can kill him with his condensed chakra blast, which also happens to blow through probably the strongest confirmed defense in the narutoverse.

he trained heavily with 200 clones, also being a 100 times more powerful then kakashi when the kyuubi isnt supressed is impressive but kakashi doesnt have a very large chakra reserve

This really is off topic and serves no purpose to our argument.

im not saying naruto isnt a chakra beast but that really means nothing especially against a genius like oro, sasuke had a lot less chakra then naruto and he still won, plus u put no time limit so chakra also means absolutely nothing in this battle

Sauske fought against Naruto with one tail, not four and he had to use CS2 to beat him there. But again this has nothing to do with this especially since that battle was pre time skip.
Work on your ideas a bit more, I don't want to spend another half an hour typing on a computer screen to tear apart a weak argument and deal with annoying quote functions.

[Blackghost164]

Originally Posted by Emperical

I'll agree with you on that, however you must get close enough to use a sealing technique and the technique has to be extremely strong to seal him at this level, it is a weakness but not many can exploit it.

no argument with u here, but to everyone who thinks he cant be sealed by anyone but yamato ure wrong, jariya made a seal, kakashi used a seal, sasuke can supress and seal the kyuubi's power so this is absolutely 4tails biggest weakness

Originally Posted by Emperical

genjutsu works on the mind so lets compare it to something in real life that is similar; mind control. You can't mind control something that reacts off of instinct because there is no conscious thoughts to exploit.
genjutsu is useless against 4t Naruto because of this.

its actually easier to control an empty vessle with mind control

of course thats real world this is naruto and i was saying potential things that could hurt him, but judging from the fact that naruto is weak against genjutsu and the kyuubi was controlled by the sharingan, something i compare to sasuke controlling manda with his genjutsu id say its a safe assumption to think that genjutsu is one of the kyuubi's weaknesses

Originally Posted by Emperical

Name one thing Oro has that can break through his defense, remember by both of our logic to break through the attack has to be stronger than the chakra of the demon king.

the demon king thing is from fanfic, but i more or less agree here but my point is that its not impossible to think that oro could use an attack with chakra condensed enough to hurt naruto

Originally Posted by Emperical

Destructive intent is a way of saying by instinct it destroys everything near. A fair comparison would be a rabid dog.

a rabid dog is similiar because it lashes out at everything that comes close, which is the same as 4tails, but destructive intent means that u want to destroy, eliminate and obliterate everything that gets in ure way

its not simply lashing out it attempts to completely destroy everything

Originally Posted by Emperical

I never said Naruto was supressing his power, he just doesn't see Oro as a threat and because of that he won't use the full extent of his power.

u have to be concious to even register a threat from something thats peacefull, this can be seen by him attacking sakura even though she had no intentions to hurt him

what this means is that he doesnt have any cognitive skills to hold back his power, everyone of his attacks would be his full power because again u have to use cognitive skills to conciously limit ureself

Originally Posted by Emperical

He hit her with his tail, she was incapacitated after that, considering what he was doing with Oro slowly reaching out to hit her with any appendage is not using any effort what so ever and can be compared to swatting a mosquito that is annoying you.
[url="http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/08/"][u]
I see him swatting her with his tail, he didn't move other than that.

[url="http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/10/"]

look at the pictures again and look at the whole chapter where he attacks sakura

in the first picture when he swings his tail at her u can see his head is turning towards her, he is looking at where the bridge used to be and he goes to looking to the side where sakura is, the drawing is also drawn to show that he is about to turn

when u see naruto sealed by yamato he is turned towards sakura and not towards the bridge

also i would like to hear y u think he was holding back on oro or matching oro's power, if this were the case he would attacked directly after he was attacked simply retiating and not attacking, since we know that naruto actually attacks first and we know that naruto is attacking the whole time, oro only really counters his attacks we can assume that naruto isnt just "matching" oro's power

and again tell me how an unconcious beast can regulate their power?

this isnt for u but i read that someone in this thread thinks the kyuubi takes over when naruto goes 4tails, this isnt true as we have been discussing it is destructive intent not the kyuubi's concious

Originally Posted by Emperical

Hes standing as he is trapped by the wood, ther is no indication of him turning towards her like you describe in either the anime or the magna. This is speculation based upon your imagination and no feasible ideas are used to support this.

i just described this above, read the chapter again its not my imagination he clearly turns

Originally Posted by Emperical

Since he is obviously shoving his hands through the ground to grab her, ripping her in half and shooting concentrated chakra at her torn remains you win this one, he definitely didn't hold back there. *rolls eyes*

[url="http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/296/09/"]

he got trapped immediatly, yamato started his technique before naruto even started to attack, reread this chapter, naruto would have killed sakura had yamato not stopped him, y? because all he cares about is completely destroying everything in his path

Originally Posted by Emperical

So you're telling me that when he threw his wall of snakes, an incredibly potent defense to SAVE HIS LIFE and one of his stronger, if not strongest attack he wasn't trying?
Well in that case he shouldn't have needed the sound village to help him execute his invasion of the leaf village.

his wall of snakes was an attack, but he always summons snakes, oh really a bunch of small snakes, he didnt even summon a big snake something he did immediately against a threatening opponent like jariya and tsunade

his defense is strong but its not the strongest defense, he also used that attack to attack naruto, let me ask u a question since narutos attack is so strong y wasnt oro hurt at all? because he was able to best naruto's attack and then counter immediately

oro wasnt even scared, he runs to save his life against the sannin, 2 threatening opponents and he is visably sweating and shaking against the 3rd when he fights him, what does he do against naruto he says "my my, not even my sword can cut him" he laughs alot and at the end he says play times over, he really sounds scared to me

Originally Posted by Emperical

Theres nothing to argue here, although the effectiveness of the said techniques is greatly diminished because of the raw power he holds.

agreed but its not impossible

Originally Posted by Emperical

You know what the perks of him being a monster is? He can recover from most fatal wounds. I don't care if Oro is smart, if he doesn't have the power to break through Naruto's defense he can't hurt him.

he's a monster because he turned his own body into a giant white snake that emits poison when u cut it, also he is a monster because its oro, enough said he is a monster

and what is ure proof that he couldnt hurt him if he actually tried, really tell me what extremely powerful technique oro used against naruto to try no hurt him

snakes, big suprise there, his fist, and his sword
- ya that sounds like the pinicle of oro's power, i mean the man who invented an immortality jutsu, beat a hokage, summon three hokages, and be feared by konoha, considered for 4th hokage, able to join AK, able to leave and be feared by AK

ya that sounds like that his strongest abilities

Originally Posted by Emperical

We arn't talking about someone who is slightly stronger than Oro here, the power gap is absolutely massive in terms of raw power.
Oro can't hurt Naruto and by Oro's own admittance Naruto can kill him with his condensed chakra blast, which also happens to blow through probably the strongest confirmed defense in the narutoverse.

power gap isnt gigantic, seriously 4tails naruto without being stopped by yamato was stopped by jariya, and jariya wasnt trying to hurt naruto at all, oro is as strong or stronger then jariya so u saying he also couldnt beat 4tails, especially if he was healthy is astounding

and no, the gates are not the strongest confirmed defense in the narutoverse, show me where it says that

Originally Posted by Emperical

Sauske fought against Naruto with one tail, not four and he had to use CS2 to beat him there. But again this has nothing to do with this especially since that battle was pre time skip.
Work on your ideas a bit more, I don't want to spend another half an hour typing on a computer screen to tear apart a weak argument and deal with annoying quote functions.

principle is the same, naruto had a lot more chakra then sasuke then, he also had the kyuubi power and sasuke still beat him, cs or not were still talking about chakra reserves

[Emperical]

no argument with u here, but to everyone who thinks he cant be sealed by anyone but yamato ure wrong, jariya made a seal, kakashi used a seal, sasuke can supress and seal the kyuubi's power so this is absolutely 4tails biggest weakness

Agreed, although Sauske was able to supress the beginnings of his power while Naruto was in control.
The same might not ally when his tails are released.
Jariya can, Yamato can although we have no idea if that necklace is a prerequisite and Kakashi used a seal that Jariya made for him.
Kakashi probably couldn't come close enough at a 4t state to use that seal, anything lower though I totally agree Kakashi can seal with Jariya's seal.

its actually easier to control an empty vessle with mind control

I'm a psyche student, I have a far greater understanding of mind control and without getting into a whole separate debate I couldn't explain it to you in a way you would understand. So lets just leave it at you have no idea what you are talking about on this fact.

of course thats real world this is naruto and i was saying potential things that could hurt him, but judging from the fact that naruto is weak against genjutsu and the kyuubi was controlled by the sharingan, something i compare to sasuke controlling manda with his genjutsu id say its a safe assumption to think that genjutsu is one of the kyuubi's weaknesses

Kyuubi was SUPPRESSED by the sharingan at that was not a full kyuubi power that was suppressed, he was never controlled by it. On another note Oro doesn't have the Sharingan so why is this even a point in your argument considering nothing comes even close to the uniqueness of abilities found in those magical little eyes.

the demon king thing is from fanfic, but i more or less agree here but my point is that its not impossible to think that oro could use an attack with chakra condensed enough to hurt naruto

For reference he is the strongest "demon" in Narutoverse and in Japanese Mythology he is the Fire God.
Category:Shinto kami - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

a rabid dog is similiar because it lashes out at everything that comes close, which is the same as 4tails, but destructive intent means that u want to destroy, eliminate and obliterate everything that gets in ure way

It was a comparison, not an exact match.
Naruto is not controlled by the Demon fox as 4t, nor is he in control.
This is a state of eternal struggle where neither has control and the result is total chaos and a feral instinct that does not have an equilibrium with its environment. Otherwise the Kyuubi could talk in this form.

its not simply lashing out it attempts to completely destroy everything

Lashing out is a simplistic term with any meanings, in context it implies that Naruto in 4t mode does not think about what he is destroying, he just destroys. Similar to instinct in a very perverse sense of the word.

u have to be concious to even register a threat from something thats peacefull, this can be seen by him attacking sakura even though she had no intentions to hurt him

Conscious in this terminology is referring to sentient thought processes.
Naruto in 4t does not have sentient thought processes, therefore he acts off of instinct and both the Kyuubi's and Naruto's subconscious.
I don't know why you even put a rebuttal to my point on this, yours goes against everything psychology is based on.

what this means is that he doesnt have any cognitive skills to hold back his power, everyone of his attacks would be his full power because again u have to use cognitive skills to conciously limit ureself

Seriously, do you have a degree in sociology, psychology or biology?
If you don't and if you arn't enrolled in any of these classes you most likely have no idea what you are talking about and are talking out of your ass, making up things in an attempt to blindside me with illogical thinking.

look at the pictures again and look at the whole chapter where he attacks sakura

in the first picture when he swings his tail at her u can see his head is turning towards her, he is looking at where the bridge used to be and he goes to looking to the side where sakura is, the drawing is also drawn to show that he is about to turn

Does not mean he turned to her, he hit her with his tail and she was done.
Because the magna goes frame by frame we do not see if he does or not, so we must look to the anime, where he did not turn to her after she was hit. Speculation and conjecture will not do you well in arguing with me, nor will you letting your imagination run wild.

when u see naruto sealed by yamato he is turned towards sakura and not towards the bridge

We can't see where she is, so yet again this is conjecture and speculation.
From an artists point of view this is the most effective way to show what is happening, because drawing it from the side would seem like a waste.

also i would like to hear y u think he was holding back on oro or matching oro's power, if this were the case he would attacked directly after he was attacked simply retiating and not attacking, since we know that naruto actually attacks first and we know that naruto is attacking the whole time, oro only really counters his attacks we can assume that naruto isnt just "matching" oro's power

I explained that already, Oro wasn't producing anything that could harm Naruto, therefore he is not a major and immediate threat.
If he was, Naruto in 4t would have done more than sit there for 5 minutes while Oro poked him with his sword.

and again tell me how an unconcious beast can regulate their power?

Redundant and covered this already, but for the sake of argument lets go over it again.
Naruto is not regulating his power.
He's not using everything he has.
Its the difference between moving fast and slow, from shoving his hands in the ground to shooting condensed chakra.

this isnt for u but i read that someone in this thread thinks the kyuubi takes over when naruto goes 4tails, this isnt true as we have been discussing it is destructive intent not the kyuubi's concious

Totally agreed and I'm pretty sure the anime and magna support this as well.

i just described this above, read the chapter again its not my imagination he clearly turns

Shit you're right, I clearly see now, Sakura is on the ground before him.
I'd like to thank the academy for this award, along with whoever invented sarcasm.

he got trapped immediatly, yamato started his technique before naruto even started to attack, reread this chapter, naruto would have killed sakura had yamato not stopped him, y? because all he cares about is completely destroying everything in his path

Would he have to use a chakra cannon for that? or would he need to shove his hands into the ground?

his wall of snakes was an attack, but he always summons snakes, oh really a bunch of small snakes, he didnt even summon a big snake something he did immediately against a threatening opponent like jariya and tsunade

He was torn in half, thats a hell of a lot more than any of those people did.
It wasn't nessicarily a battle of physical feats hence why no one was sweating, although Oro was breathing heavily in the anime.

his defense is strong but its not the strongest defense, he also used that attack to attack naruto, let me ask u a question since narutos attack is so strong y wasnt oro hurt at all? because he was able to best naruto's attack and then counter immediately

Name a defense stronger and you can't say Itachi's big skeleton thing because its not confirmed on what its supposed to be.
Oro was face first in the dirt with this defense totally obliterated and a massive crater on all sides of him.
If that attack had anymore power to it he would have died.

oro wasnt even scared, he runs to save his life against the sannin, 2 threatening opponents and he is visably sweating and shaking against the 3rd when he fights him, what does he do against naruto he says "my my, not even my sword can cut him" he laughs alot and at the end he says play times over, he really sounds scared to me

Sounds like running to me, his host was in horrible shape so he ran to save his life.
So when the sword said to cut through anything has failed to cut him, what does he use next?
Im pretty sure the giant snake won't do much and definitely doesn't have the defense to shield it from a chakra blast.

he's a monster because he turned his own body into a giant white snake that emits poison when u cut it, also he is a monster because its oro, enough said he is a monster

Your point? You didn't disprove me or add anything further other than repeatedly saying he is a monster.

and what is ure proof that he couldnt hurt him if he actually tried, really tell me what extremely powerful technique oro used against naruto to try no hurt him

Tell me what extremely powerful technique has Oro used in the past that could be used against Naruto.
Naruto has demonstrated the ability to kill Oro while Oro has not.

snakes, big suprise there, his fist, and his sword
- ya that sounds like the pinicle of oro's power, i mean the man who invented an immortality jutsu, beat a hokage, summon three hokages, and be feared by konoha, considered for 4th hokage, able to join AK, able to leave and be feared by AK

So tell me and give me the resources you use to explain what exactly is the pinnacle of his power.
I want to see other techniques that would be useful against 4t Naruto in either the Anime or the Magna.
Holding techniques have been proven ineffective, therfore holding him with snakes will not help especially since his wall of snakes was burnt off before they got close.

power gap isnt gigantic, seriously 4tails naruto without being stopped by yamato was stopped by jariya, and jariya wasnt trying to hurt naruto at all, oro is as strong or stronger then jariya so u saying he also couldnt beat 4tails, especially if he was healthy is astounding

I'm iffy about Jariya, Naruto can definitely throw down against Jariya as 4t, but Jariya might not have been trying.
We haven't seen enough of either of them to make a call on what happened that day.

and no, the gates are not the strongest confirmed defense in the narutoverse, show me where it says that

Show me a defense thats stronger than the three gates.
Itachis skeleton thing doesn't count because we don't know what it is or what its used for.

principle is the same, naruto had a lot more chakra then sasuke then, he also had the kyuubi power and sasuke still beat him, cs or not were still talking about chakra reserves

PRE TIME SKIP
Sauske used his CS2 to beat one tail, not two, not 3 and not 4.
Thats a second level transformation from Sauske to beat a first level transformation of Naruto.
This also has nothing to do with Oro and regardless of what you believe this has no place in a thread that does not involve Sauske.

[Blackghost164]

Originally Posted by Emperical

Kyuubi was SUPPRESSED by the sharingan at that was not a full kyuubi power that was suppressed, he was never controlled by it. On another note Oro doesn't have the Sharingan so why is this even a point in your argument considering nothing comes even close to the uniqueness of abilities found in those magical little eyes.

i was talking about madara controlling the kyuubi like a pet and i compared it to sasuke controlling manda during the dd fight

to control manda he used genjutsu and u see the sharingan symbol in manda's eye

we also see the kyuubi's eye have this in one of the recent mange panels

my point is that madara most likely controlled the nine tails like a pet by using genjutsu so the kyuubi is probably weak against genjutsu

Originally Posted by Emperical

For reference he is the strongest "demon" in Narutoverse and in Japanese Mythology he is the Fire God.
Category:Shinto kami - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

im telling u this with certianty that is a wide spread fan fic that has been circulated and gets brought up all the time but it is fake

so far nothing about the limit of the kyuubi's power, if he is the most powerful bijuu or if he is fire element has been brought up

Originally Posted by Emperical

It was a comparison, not an exact match.
Naruto is not controlled by the Demon fox as 4t, nor is he in control.
This is a state of eternal struggle where neither has control and the result is total chaos and a feral instinct that does not have an equilibrium with its environment. Otherwise the Kyuubi could talk in this form.

i like this description, one thing is that we are unsure if the kyuubi can normally talk or if it gained a concious because it is in naruto

Originally Posted by Emperical

Lashing out is a simplistic term with any meanings, in context it implies that Naruto in 4t mode does not think about what he is destroying, he just destroys. Similar to instinct in a very perverse sense of the word.

agreed, but if ure out to destroy everything u dont hold back or stop untill its destroyed

Originally Posted by Emperical

Conscious in this terminology is referring to sentient thought processes.
Naruto in 4t does not have sentient thought processes, therefore he acts off of instinct and both the Kyuubi's and Naruto's subconscious.
I don't know why you even put a rebuttal to my point on this, yours goes against everything psychology is based on.

he acts off instinct based on destroying everything in its path with no exceptions, it doesnt have the capacity to hold back, or mimic the power of his opponent, it has no thought as u said it lashes out at everything

also since this is a manga psychology pretty much has nothing to do with it, we just have to look at the facts that kishi gives us

Originally Posted by Emperical

Seriously, do you have a degree in sociology, psychology or biology?
If you don't and if you arn't enrolled in any of these classes you most likely have no idea what you are talking about and are talking out of your ass, making up things in an attempt to blindside me with illogical thinking.

haha thats actually kind of funny i have a bio emphasis with a lot of sociological and some psychological background

and dont act like ure the expert on psyche or any of these subjects just because ure a student, there is a huge difference between being a studend and an expert

Originally Posted by Emperical

Does not mean he turned to her, he hit her with his tail and she was done.
Because the magna goes frame by frame we do not see if he does or not, so we must look to the anime, where he did not turn to her after she was hit. Speculation and conjecture will not do you well in arguing with me, nor will you letting your imagination run wild.

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look i am not using the anime, but in the manga u can clearly see that he turns to attack sakura, just look at all those pictures and especially the last one look to see that he is turned directly looking at sakura and yamato

Originally Posted by Emperical

I explained that already, Oro wasn't producing anything that could harm Naruto, therefore he is not a major and immediate threat.
If he was, Naruto in 4t would have done more than sit there for 5 minutes while Oro poked him with his sword.

if he isnt concious and he is judging off instinct alone how do u judge what is a threat and whats not? this is basic fight or flight with a twist, because we know he is going to fight because he is driven by the need to destroy, i cant say that enough how does an unconcious beast know to only destroy this much, they dont?

Originally Posted by Emperical

Redundant and covered this already, but for the sake of argument lets go over it again.
Naruto is not regulating his power.
He's not using everything he has.
Its the difference between moving fast and slow, from shoving his hands in the ground to shooting condensed chakra.

the 4tails is using its full power, since 4tails in general doesnt have a concious then there is no way he can regulate how much power to put in this attack, or only use this attack i dont want to kill this person, or this person is only this strong i dont need to use my full power

that i something a concious being would do, not a beast driven by the desire and need to destroy everything in its path

Originally Posted by Emperical

Would he have to use a chakra cannon for that? or would he need to shove his hands into the ground?

he would use whatever it took to kill her, he wasnt finished attacking and he didnt go directly into using the chakra blast with oro, u can tell by his pattern of attack that it wasnt planned out all he did was use whatever technique would hit his opponent

he wouldnt go easy because it was sakura
again no concious

Originally Posted by Emperical

He was torn in half, thats a hell of a lot more than any of those people did.
It wasn't nessicarily a battle of physical feats hence why no one was sweating, although Oro was breathing heavily in the anime.

torn in half for a second, lose ure arms untill u switch bodies?
again i dont care about the anime, it didnt happen in the manga which is more credible because the anime uses filler

and oro would sweat because he was scared instead he laughs and jokes around, he is smiling the whole time

Originally Posted by Emperical

Name a defense stronger and you can't say Itachi's big skeleton thing because its not confirmed on what its supposed to be.
Oro was face first in the dirt with this defense totally obliterated and a massive crater on all sides of him.
If that attack had anymore power to it he would have died.

the shield that is on susanoo is said to be invincible, it took kirin which is natural lighting and itachi admitted it would have killed him

but i dont know how strong the gates are, neither do u, the point is they stopped the chakra blast and oro used the opportunity to attack, he remained unhurt, face first was obviously part of his plan to attack naruto, and stopping the chakra blast isnt saying much since we only know that the chakra was enough to kill him if it was a direct hit, the same can be said about the rasengan but that doesnt mean ud have to use the ultimant defense to stop it

strong yes, but the ultimant defense, thats just way over stating it

Originally Posted by Emperical

Sounds like running to me, his host was in horrible shape so he ran to save his life.
So when the sword said to cut through anything has failed to cut him, what does he use next?
Im pretty sure the giant snake won't do much and definitely doesn't have the defense to shield it from a chakra blast.

he never ran, the fight was already over, is he supposed to go back and taunt naruto even though he wasnt trying to kill naruto, sakura or yamato

also his sword is not his strongest technique, where are u getting this? do i have to reiterate that oro is a master of jutsu, he was trained by the 3rd and both of them have 1000's of jutsu's up their sleeve

Originally Posted by Emperical

Tell me what extremely powerful technique has Oro used in the past that could be used against Naruto.
Naruto has demonstrated the ability to kill Oro while Oro has not.

just because we havent seen any doesnt meen they dont exist, y would he try to even hurt naruto, he was playing around with him and he wanted to let him live there was no point for him to treat this like anything but a game

just to show u what i mean, oro busted out a 8 headed hydra against itachi, itachi immediately recognized it as oro's attack yet we have never even seen this seemingly typical attack

Originally Posted by Emperical

So tell me and give me the resources you use to explain what exactly is the pinnacle of his power.
I want to see other techniques that would be useful against 4t Naruto in either the Anime or the Magna.
Holding techniques have been proven ineffective, therfore holding him with snakes will not help especially since his wall of snakes was burnt off before they got close.

considering he fought the 3rd, he was able to stand up against tsunade and jariya without the use of his jutsu, he is called a monster, we know he is far above kakashi's level

we havent even seen him show off his true power yet and thats saying something considering the opponents that he's fought

Originally Posted by Emperical

I'm iffy about Jariya, Naruto can definitely throw down against Jariya as 4t, but Jariya might not have been trying.
We haven't seen enough of either of them to make a call on what happened that day.

k the beggining of this quote contradicts alot of what ure saying, if jariya can win against naruto 4tails without trying then oro definetly can as well

Originally Posted by Emperical

PRE TIME SKIP
Sauske used his CS2 to beat one tail, not two, not 3 and not 4.
Thats a second level transformation from Sauske to beat a first level transformation of Naruto.
This also has nothing to do with Oro and regardless of what you believe this has no place in a thread that does not involve Sauske.

k ure not understanding this at all, the kyuubi cloak is the same, yes its stronger when he is in 4tails but the principle is the same

just because naruto has more raw power or chakra then his opponent doesnt mean he is going to win, if ure jutsu has more chakra then the cloak then its defenses are useless, unless the 4tails kyuubi cloak has the most chakra ever seen before pulsing through it at all times then it can be beaten by a ninjutsu, thats the only point i was trying to make

also side note this argument is getting really really long and hard to read, when u respond if u agree with a point or answer it above just leave it at that, i feel bad for people trying to follow along

[Emperical]

agreed, but if ure out to destroy everything u dont hold back or stop untill its destroyed

Agreed, but the fight was ended prematurely, I really don't think we have seen a fraction of what either of them can do.

he acts off instinct based on destroying everything in its path with no exceptions, it doesnt have the capacity to hold back, or mimic the power of his opponent, it has no thought as u said it lashes out at everything

I'm agreeing with most of this, however I still think the 4T dosn't use everything it has unless its needed.
Otherwise it would have done a lot worse to Sakura when she came near him.

also since this is a manga psychology pretty much has nothing to do with it, we just have to look at the facts that kishi gives us

Its a story about people, while the events and powers are fictional the people still react just like normal humans.
Psychology plays an important role anywhere.

haha thats actually kind of funny i have a bio emphasis with a lot of sociological and some psychological background

Thats kind of interesting, but you don't portray your facts like you do and I know quite a few angsty teens would try to pass that off as truth to win an internet argument so I am a bit reluctant to believe this.

and dont act like ure the expert on psyche or any of these subjects just because ure a student, there is a huge difference between being a studend and an expert

Student going for their phd, that means I hold a masters.

Naruto 296 page 11 | One Manga

look i am not using the anime, but in the manga u can clearly see that he turns to attack sakura, just look at all those pictures and especially the last one look to see that he is turned directly looking at sakura and yamato

that last page you posted clears this up, I was wrong.

if he isnt concious and he is judging off instinct alone how do u judge what is a threat and whats not? this is basic fight or flight with a twist, because we know he is going to fight because he is driven by the need to destroy, i cant say that enough how does an unconcious beast know to only destroy this much, they dont?

How does an animal know whats a threat and what it can attack and win?

the 4tails is using its full power, since 4tails in general doesnt have a concious then there is no way he can regulate how much power to put in this attack, or only use this attack i dont want to kill this person, or this person is only this strong i dont need to use my full power

We aren't connecting on this, he isn't regulating anything he's just not using everything he has.

he would use whatever it took to kill her, he wasnt finished attacking and he didnt go directly into using the chakra blast with oro, u can tell by his pattern of attack that it wasnt planned out all he did was use whatever technique would hit his opponent

Agreed and this statement supports the a founding pillar in my argument.

he wouldnt go easy because it was sakura
again no concious

If I could agree with you more than 100% I would on this point.

torn in half for a second, lose ure arms untill u switch bodies?
again i dont care about the anime, it didnt happen in the manga which is more credible because the anime uses filler

Alright, I'll give you this point.

but i dont know how strong the gates are, neither do u, the point is they stopped the chakra blast and oro used the opportunity to attack, he remained unhurt, face first was obviously part of his plan to attack naruto, and stopping the chakra blast isnt saying much since we only know that the chakra was enough to kill him if it was a direct hit, the same can be said about the rasengan but that doesnt mean ud have to use the ultimant defense to stop it

Considering that Oro said that Naruto's chakra cannon would kill him even through the immortality jutsu we can assume that the gates are incredibly powerful.

strong yes, but the ultimant defense, thats just way over stating it

thats why I said confirmed, there is more powerful but we havn't seen it yet or we don't know for sure if it was a defense move or if that was just a function of it.

he never ran, the fight was already over, is he supposed to go back and taunt naruto even though he wasnt trying to kill naruto, sakura or yamato

I'll give you this one also, although he couldn't see Naruto restrained so he did end the fight prematurely.

also his sword is not his strongest technique, where are u getting this? do i have to reiterate that oro is a master of jutsu, he was trained by the 3rd and both of them have 1000's of jutsu's up their sleeve

Show me a page in the magna stating he knows 1000's of Jutsu and post a page before and after that page.

just because we havent seen any doesnt meen they dont exist, y would he try to even hurt naruto, he was playing around with him and he wanted to let him live there was no point for him to treat this like anything but a game

Same applies to 4T Naruto

k the beggining of this quote contradicts alot of what ure saying, if jariya can win against naruto 4tails without trying then oro definetly can as well

He sealed Naruto, he didn't beat 4T by force.

k ure not understanding this at all, the kyuubi cloak is the same, yes its stronger when he is in 4tails but the principle is the same

Yes and no, that ability (kyuubi cloak becoming a chakra shield)isn't in effect in 1,2 or 3 tails.

just because naruto has more raw power or chakra then his opponent doesnt mean he is going to win, if ure jutsu has more chakra then the cloak then its defenses are useless, unless the 4tails kyuubi cloak has the most chakra ever seen before pulsing through it at all times then it can be beaten by a ninjutsu, thats the only point i was trying to make

I see the point you are trying to make, but I believe you are completely wrong.
First of all because the Kyuubi cloak becoming extremely resistant to attacks has never been this dense before and wasn't a factor in any battle Naruto has been in before hence why the Sauske point still does not have a place in this thread.

also side note this argument is getting really really long and hard to read, when u respond if u agree with a point or answer it above just leave it at that, i feel bad for people trying to follow along

Agreed, lets leave out the portions we agree with.

[Blackghost164]

Originally Posted by Emperical

Its a story about people, while the events and powers are fictional the people still react just like normal humans.
Psychology plays an important role anywhere.

true but in the manga world kishi controls everything, not psychology, so its not effective to use psyche as the basis of ure arument

Originally Posted by Emperical

Thats kind of interesting, but you don't portray your facts like you do and I know quite a few angsty teens would try to pass that off as truth to win an internet argument so I am a bit reluctant to believe this.

Student going for their phd, that means I hold a masters.

haha my post might have been a little misleading i am a student studying those fields so when i say a student is different from an expert it applys to me too

i didnt say this to win the argument i just thought it was funny that u literally mentioned everything that ive spent substatial time on in one phrase, while trying to say that i wasnt qualified

thats not to relevent to this argument tho

Originally Posted by Emperical

How does an animal know whats a threat and what it can attack and win?

haha i like this question, but this would take to long to define what makes animals different from humans, and if animals have a concious, and the degree to which 4tails is concious and what animal he is most like

id just rather leave this argument out

Originally Posted by Emperical

We aren't connecting on this, he isn't regulating anything he's just not using everything he has.

i see this as the major differnce in our ideas, could u explain what u mean by he isnt giving everything he has, and explain how an unconcious being does this

Originally Posted by Emperical

Considering that Oro said that Naruto's chakra cannon would kill him even through the immortality jutsu we can assume that the gates are incredibly powerful.

the immortality jutsu is just him swapping bodied

but im not saying the gates arent strong just that they arent the "ultimant defense" like many people believe

the point is that in the anime they say that they are the ultimant defense, but in the manga, nothing is said about there strength or if theyre special so what is said in the anime can be considered filler and discounted

Originally Posted by Emperical

thats why I said confirmed, there is more powerful but we havn't seen it yet or we don't know for sure if it was a defense move or if that was just a function of it.

i dont understand, u said it was the strongest confirmed defense, will u clarify

Originally Posted by Emperical

Show me a page in the magna stating he knows 1000's of Jutsu and post a page before and after that page.

i might have overestimated, but i am judging this off a couple things

1) his mentor was considered the profesor of jutsu
2) he is a genius at creating his own jutsu
3) he wants immmortality to learn all the jutsu of the world
4) he tells jariya that knowing jutsu is what makes someone strong

Originally Posted