Ingenious Training Jutsu

[erosennin6996]

Naruto's Kage Bushin Training method is damn good. But it is only accessible to those with high levels of chakra and so far only Naruto uses it.

I was thinking what other Jutsu could be used to speed up a Shinobi's training. All hyperbolic time chambers asside.

One I can think of is some sort of Genjutsu. Genjutsus can be placed in seals or come live from a person. Genjutsus can be used to create any kind of environment. Think of the X-Men's Danger Room but only as a virtual reality inside your mind. A training Genjutsu can distort time (hyperbolic time chamber), revisit important battles to give experience not otherwise accessible without consequences, impart crucial information through first hand experience, and create environments and circumstances not repeatable in real training, but which do show up in actual combat.

Can anyone else come up with some new training methods that use unique jutsu?

[MuKen]

How about a doujutsu that allows you to instantly learn every jutsu you see? Except that nobody will ever use this ability once in the entire shipuuden arc because the author will completely forget about this ability, or perhaps simply realize that it doesn't lend itself to good storytelling.

[penguinism]

Originally Posted by erosennin6996

A training Genjutsu can distort time (hyperbolic time chamber)

only genjutsu able to pull off something like this is tsukuyomi thats what makes tsukuyomi so powerful...that u could do days, weeks, months worth of genjutsu torture in as little as a couple seconds...and of course it was all counted as mental anguish rather than physical damage

How about a doujutsu that allows you to instantly learn every jutsu you see? Except that nobody will ever use this ability once in the entire shipuuden arc because the author will completely forget about this ability, or perhaps simply realize that it doesn't lend itself to good storytelling.

how many jutsu have even been USED in shipuuden? seems like its been nothing but blood line abilities since the arc started whcih sharingan cant copy

[Rurouni272000]

^ Agreed. The sheer amount of jutsu in the Narutoverse is apparently enormous, but we only ever see the same few again and again.

[erosennin6996]

Originally Posted by MuKen

How about a doujutsu that allows you to instantly learn every jutsu you see? Except that nobody will ever use this ability once in the entire shipuuden arc because the author will completely forget about this ability, or perhaps simply realize that it doesn't lend itself to good storytelling.

That's what happens when you make ridiculously over powered characters. It becomes difficult to write for them. But that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm discussing something that can be used by all ninja, not some kekkei genkai unique to one person.

Originally Posted by penguinism

only genjutsu able to pull off something like this is tsukuyomi thats what makes tsukuyomi so powerful...that u could do days, weeks, months worth of genjutsu torture in as little as a couple seconds...and of course it was all counted as mental anguish rather than physical damage

You're mistaken. We know that Senjutsu Genjutsus are as powerful as Tsukuyomi. And power has nothing to do with it anyway. I'm talking about versatility. Genjutsu are just like Ninjutsu; you can make any kind of Genjutsu you want. Genjutsu deal with the five senses as opposed to the five elements. Your sense of time is merely another aspect of the five senses. Any Genjutsu user should be able to distort your sense of time just as any Genjutsu user can cause paralysis, or make you hallucinate. The power comes in only as a matter of degree. How hard is the Genjutsu to break.

But to illustrate my point, yes Tsukuyomi could be used in just the way I'm talking about. Itachi used it on Sasuke twice in a similar manner. When Sasuke discovered the death of his clan, Itachi made him relive the actual slaughter of his clan. When they came for Naruto and Sasuke caught up with them, Itachi made him relive that day for 24 hours. Clearly, Itachi can choose to make someone relive anything he wishes. Torture doesn't even have to have anything to do with it. Itachi could have made him relive his first day of school if he wanted to a thousand times. And as we have seen knowledge or jutsu can be directly passed on with Genjutsu just as Itachi did with Naruto.

So it makes sense that a Senjutsu Master could make training Genjutsus that can relive any shinobi battle in Narutoverse history from any perspective sealed up in a scroll in order to teach any aspect of Shinobi training desired with first hand experience. These scrolls could be duplicated and available to all students and shinobi. And this, unlike some all powerful eye technique unique to a few people, would make for good storytelling.

Imagine Naruto meeting his father in a training jutsu left by Minato. Or picture Naruto reliving the creation of the Rasengan firsthand through Minato's eyes. Now tell me that wouldn't be classic. Or come up with your own scenario. There's no reason to be so rigid about everything.

[cmanatjc34]

i like the whole xmen danger room idea

[The stig]

Erm, how about a giant white room with a timeglass...?

We can call it gentimechamber no jutsu if you like...

[King_Lionheart]

Well id ont know if this is ingenius, but it sounds plausible. Someone with amazing chakra control, lets take Sakura, can train twice or three times as long as any other character in the naruto world( given that their stamina is about the same) because she only needs to use the mimimum amount of chakra possible to execute her momvents. No chakra wasted equals more chakra to use.

Now a day or 2 doesn't make much of a difference, but if this person trains 3 times a week for 6 months, the numbers would look something like this.


Ninja A

5 hours of training per training day
15 hours per week
60 hours per month
360 hours of training in 6 month


Ninja A (With perfect chakra control)

15 hours of training per training day
45 hours of training per week
180 hours of training per month
1080 hours of training per 6 month


This is just a lot of hard work and dedication, but in my head it works.

[GiantMidget]

Training with regular genjutsus won't be much diff because any genjutsu besides tsuykyomi takes up real time, if you spend 1 minute in the genjutsu that's 1 minute in real time.
Also genjutsus merely manipulate chakra to trick your sense, your body doesn't truly received the training or feeling of what you did in the genjutsu, or the muscle memory.
Or thats what I think
This training method is pretty simple it it could work that way why hasnt Kishi made it that the ninjas train this way?
Its like you can fight people all you wanted in the genjutsu but you real body would never attain the stamina strength or skill to perform the teqnique once your out all you gonna know is how to do it. Once again no muscle memory.

[nozferah2]

How about a Lucid dream Jutsu? That would be damn awesome.
A Lucid dream is when a person gains consciousness while still in a dream.

You can make whatever scenario you want in a LD if your good at it. That means you can literally train while you rest, and while your awake too.

This kind of thing sounds like a genjutsu user would be able to do it since they dive in and out of peoples consciousness when using a GJ, they should be able to fully utilize their own consciousness too.

[erosennin6996]

Originally Posted by GiantMidget

Training with regular genjutsus won't be much diff because any genjutsu besides tsuykyomi takes up real time, if you spend 1 minute in the genjutsu that's 1 minute in real time.
Also genjutsus merely manipulate chakra to trick your sense, your body doesn't truly received the training or feeling of what you did in the genjutsu, or the muscle memory.
Or thats what I think
This training method is pretty simple it it could work that way why hasnt Kishi made it that the ninjas train this way?
Its like you can fight people all you wanted in the genjutsu but you real body would never attain the stamina strength or skill to perform the teqnique once your out all you gonna know is how to do it. Once again no muscle memory.

You're mistaken. I've already explained that time distortion is just another aspect of Genjutsu manipulation of the five senses. You see objects moving at a certain pace, or hear sounds at a certain frequency, or feel the pasage of time at a certain rate. That's just a normal aspect of your senses. Any Genjutsu can be made to mess with that. Just because Tsukuyomi is the only one we've seen that uses it doesn't mean it can't be done with other Genjutsus. Saying that it does is like saying that since Tsukuyomi is the only high level Genjutsu shown that causes pain then no other high level Genjutsu can be made to cause pain. That's silly.

Also, you're wrong about the muscle memory part too. If a Genjutsu can cause pain then it can make your muscles feel anything it's designed to. That's all that's required for muscle memory. But even if I take you seriously, Genjutsu can be made that don't cause paralysis. Bringer-of-Darkness Genjutsu used against the Third in the Orochimaru fight did not cause paralysis. Its only effect was to black out the eyesight as if one was under cover of complete darkness. It had no other effect whatsoever. The Third was stil able to move and cast jutsu and fight like normal. If I take your objections seriously then I have to assume that all other Genjutsu must cause paralysis, because this is the only one we've seen that doesn't. That doesn't make any sense. The rules for Genjutsu have been explained. Shinobi can make new Genjutsu according to those rules. The limitations you're describing just aren't true.

New Genjutsu can be constructed to do whatever it is possible to do with the five senses. If Naruto learns Sage Genjutsu he could make up his own Genjutsu that distorted time all he wanted. Sage Genjutsus are as powerful as Tsukuyomi.

Kishi probably isn't thinking along those lines or doesn't want to go down that route. That doesn't mean we can't speculate along those lines. There are all kinds of theories, hypotheses, and speculations dealing with Naruto. That's half the fun of reading the manga.

Just for information purposes. In real life, sports scientists have shown that atheletes get 90% of the benefit of visualizing training as they do in actual training in terms of an increase in skill such as shooting freehrows in basketball. Also, the most successful athletes visualize their best performances in their mind right before they do it.

[erosennin6996]

Originally Posted by nozferah2

How about a Lucid dream Jutsu? That would be damn awesome.
A Lucid dream is when a person gains consciousness while still in a dream.

You can make whatever scenario you want in a LD if your good at it. That means you can literally train while you rest, and while your awake too.

This kind of thing sounds like a genjutsu user would be able to do it since they dive in and out of peoples consciousness when using a GJ, they should be able to fully utilize their own consciousness too.

That's a good idea.

Training could take place around the clock. Shinobi's would train by Genjutsu lucid dreams at night and execute their training for real in the daylight. This type of training would definitely give some village a leg up on their competitors.

[penguinism]

Originally Posted by erosennin6996

That's what happens when you make ridiculously over powered characters. It becomes difficult to write for them. But that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm discussing something that can be used by all ninja, not some kekkei genkai unique to one person.



You're mistaken. We know that Senjutsu Genjutsus are as powerful as Tsukuyomi. And power has nothing to do with it anyway. I'm talking about versatility. Genjutsu are just like Ninjutsu; you can make any kind of Genjutsu you want. Genjutsu deal with the five senses as opposed to the five elements. Your sense of time is merely another aspect of the five senses. Any Genjutsu user should be able to distort your sense of time just as any Genjutsu user can cause paralysis, or make you hallucinate. The power comes in only as a matter of degree. How hard is the Genjutsu to break.

But to illustrate my point, yes Tsukuyomi could be used in just the way I'm talking about. Itachi used it on Sasuke twice in a similar manner. When Sasuke discovered the death of his clan, Itachi made him relive the actual slaughter of his clan. When they came for Naruto and Sasuke caught up with them, Itachi made him relive that day for 24 hours. Clearly, Itachi can choose to make someone relive anything he wishes. Torture doesn't even have to have anything to do with it. Itachi could have made him relive his first day of school if he wanted to a thousand times. And as we have seen knowledge or jutsu can be directly passed on with Genjutsu just as Itachi did with Naruto.

So it makes sense that a Senjutsu Master could make training Genjutsus that can relive any shinobi battle in Narutoverse history from any perspective sealed up in a scroll in order to teach any aspect of Shinobi training desired with first hand experience. These scrolls could be duplicated and available to all students and shinobi. And this, unlike some all powerful eye technique unique to a few people, would make for good storytelling.

Imagine Naruto meeting his father in a training jutsu left by Minato. Or picture Naruto reliving the creation of the Rasengan firsthand through Minato's eyes. Now tell me that wouldn't be classic. Or come up with your own scenario. There's no reason to be so rigid about everything.

ur joking right? about senjutsu genjutsu being able to match tsuki...id like to see ANY kind of proof of this...better yet ill show proof on why nothing can match tsuki and why no normal genjutsu can alter time like tsuki does

Naruto 142 page 17 | One Manga

tsuki basicly teleports their mind to another dimension, a dimension where the one casting the tsuki genjutsu is able to control everything: space, time, matter, etc

no normal genjutsu has that kind of control...the most a normal genjutsu could do is......hmm...best example would be when ur bored in class and it seems like the class is taking a year but its only been 5 minutes...do u learn more in those 5 minutes? no...they just SEEM slower, but they actually arent so therefore u cant learn more in those 5 minutes...5 minutes is 5 minutes is 5 minutes, no matter how long u may THINK it is doesnt change that fact

[erosennin6996]

No, are you joking?

Because you absolutely have to be to even pretend to believe what you just said.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Kakashi, or Sasuke, or anyone else under a Tsukuyomi has had their mind teleported anywhere at all. Why would this be the case? Because Itachi said so? Itachi also said that a normal sharingan couldn't break a Tsukuyomi either, but we know how that one turned out.

Normal teleportation takes someone from one spot to another. Once it's done it's done. How does "mind teleportation" work. If it's so that Tsukuyomi is actually "mind teleportation", how did Sasuke outside of his body and in the so-called world of the "Grasping Moon" gain access to his sharingan in order to break the Tsukuyomi. And once the Tsukuyomi was broken, how did he teleport his mind back into his body, since "mind teleportation" is not a power of the regular sharingan. Shouldn't he be a ghost now, wandering around in spirit inside the world of the "Grasping Moon"? How did Killer Bee get back into his body from the world of the "Grasping Moon"? Or are you one of those people who thinks that Sasugay's Tsukuyomi is different than Itachi's Tsukuyomi?

Oh, I know, Killer Bee pulled a Neo Matrix out of Sasugay's ass and used the residual mental image of his digital sharingan to break the Tsukuyomi. Then they both hitchiked all the way back to their bodies by piggybacking on your ridiculous post.

I've absolutely no evidence that Senjutsu Genjutsu is not at least as powerful as Tsukuyomi. In fact, I've good evidence that Senjutsu Genjutsu is much more powerful than Tsukuyomi, since we've never seen it broken and we have seen Tsukuyomi broken with just a supposedly inferior sharingan. We've also seen Tsukuyomi shattered instantly with Killer Bee's Bijuu lending chakra. Pein didn't attack Jiraiya until Ma & Pa frog stop singing and the Genjutsu ended. That gives good indication, although not totally conclusive, that he couldn't attack until that point. So as far as we know the Rinnegan can't break Senjutsu Genjutsu. In fact, the most powerful Genjutsu seem to be Fuuinjutsu Genjutsu since the only way we've ever explicitly seen someone removed from their body in the Narutoverse is with sealing jutsu, so once more Tsukuyomi that you love so much loses again.

This is clear because the only indication we have of anything removing someone from their body during a Genjutsu was when we SAW Orichimaru being removed from his body when he was stabbed by Susanoo's sword. That wasn't just a Genjutsu. It was also SEALING his soul away in side the sword. That means it's both Genjutsu and Fuuinjutsu.

And your mind does distort time, best example would your dreams, which can be shown to last only minutes and sometimes seconds but can seem as if they lasted for hours. Hypnosis can also distort time turning minutes into hours. Drugs can also severely distort your sense of time. I had an operation and was given Demerol and hours certainly did turn into days. But we're not talking about what's possible in real life we're talking about a manga. And I've seen nothing in this one to indicate that regular Genjutsu or at least other higher level Genjutsu besides Tsukuyomi can't distort someone's sense of time to ridiculous levels.

Genjutsu means "Illusion Techniques." The definition of a Genjutsu is a jutsu that effects the five sense creating illusions in the brain. Tsukuyomi is a Genjutsu; therefore Tsukuyomi is an illusion in the brain. That means unless Kishi himself explicitly states otherwise or you can show me a databook page that explicitly says otherwise then Tsukuyomi is nothing more than the Illusion of having been transported to some non-exsistant world of the "Grasping Moon."

EVEN IF I believed as you do that Tsukuyomi is the only different Genjutsu in existence, it is still a known fact that shinobi can create brand new jutsu. If Tsukuyomi can exist then someone else can create a jutsu that is just like it or better. Jiraiya's jutsu indicates this. When and if Naruto learns Senjutsu Genjutsu he could make his own Tsukuyomi like world. We already know that Orochimaru constructed his soul changing world himself. Other shinobi can do the same.

Get real and stop spouting nonsense like it's the gospel.

[KillMe]

it was quite catagorically stated that only tsukiyomi can influence the perception of time chiyo ba was explaining about breaking genjutsu and kakashi said this is abit different since the effects are instanteous

the only change to time perception through normal genjutsu would be through sensory deprivation which does slow down time but if you introduce any form of training etc to it bang your perception of time returns so

tsukiyomi is the only one that can alter pereption of time

so genjutsu for training is pointless other than learnign to break them, i do however think that most ninja could use a couple of kage bunshins to speed thigns along abit - nto to the extend naruto can obviously but surely they could manage 5 and increase there learning rate by 5 times too

[abutataik]

I think with this Genjutsu training idea in regards to time manipulation, it's only plausible for mental training or gaining knowledge. Like when tsukiyomi was done do Sasuke, he was only seeing things that supposedly happened for 24hours within a few minutes or seconds in reality time. So I guess the training would only be useful for packing yourself with a lot of information within a short perod of time.
But for any physical training, I don't think it's possible.

Maybe the X-men danger room thing is plausible, just for the fact of manipulating your environments with genjutsu.

If Itachi put you in a tsukiyomi genjutsu where you're working out and lifting weights for 100 years in only 1 second, when you go back to reality I don't think you would be 10 times buffer looking than you were a second before hehe although that would be nice.

[IDre]

I am going to put this out there, every time we had seen a flash back of Itachi and Sasuske, Sasuske was asking Itachi to teach him some Jutsu or the other then itachi would Poke him on the head.
Now since he implanted the black flames in Sasuskes eyes much in the same way, maybe this could be one method of training. Not sure what to call it though.

[erosennin6996]

I'm not going to keep arguing with different folks over the same stuff. I stated why I think that Tsukuyomi is no different than any other high level Genjutsu. The rules for Genjutsu have been clearly laid down. If you want to believe that every thing in this manga is forever frozen as it was first presented, fine, then Itachi is still an evil bastard, Kakashi must have gone and murdered his best friend during the time skip, a normal sharingan can't break a Tsukuyomi, no one can have all five or six or whatever elemental manipulations, and since Amaterasu burns everything it touchs Jiraiya wasn't able to seal it away with the mist that came out of his sealing jutsu.

You're welcome to your opinion. I have a different one. We'll just have to wait and see what road Kishi goes down.

Originally Posted by abutataik

I think with this Genjutsu training idea in regards to time manipulation, it's only plausible for mental training or gaining knowledge. Like when tsukiyomi was done do Sasuke, he was only seeing things that supposedly happened for 24hours within a few minutes or seconds in reality time. So I guess the training would only be useful for packing yourself with a lot of information within a short perod of time.
But for any physical training, I don't think it's possible.

Maybe the X-men danger room thing is plausible, just for the fact of manipulating your environments with genjutsu.

If Itachi put you in a tsukiyomi genjutsu where you're working out and lifting weights for 100 years in only 1 second, when you go back to reality I don't think you would be 10 times buffer looking than you were a second before hehe although that would be nice.

You're right. But every kind of training can't do everything. If there's some benefit to it then that's all that can be asked. Lifting weights all day can't make you better at tactics or strategy, nor can it teach a ninja new jutsu. But that's ok cause all it's supposed to do is make the body stronger.

Originally Posted by IDre

I am going to put this out there, every time we had seen a flash back of Itachi and Sasuske, Sasuske was asking Itachi to teach him some Jutsu or the other then itachi would Poke him on the head.
Now since he implanted the black flames in Sasuskes eyes much in the same way, maybe this could be one method of training. Not sure what to call it though.

Damn that's a good idea IDre, wonder why I didn't think of it. See that's what I'm talking about. Instead of arguing over one thing, lets have a little bit of imagination and come up with some interesting things to discuss.

The Japanese religion of Zen Buddhism has a legend about how the Buddha picks a successor; he transmits his enlightened state of mind to one student instantly or something like that. Its called Shin'in which translates to "mind seal." It is also refered to as a Tanden which means "single transmission" this is often thought of as a direct mind to mind contact.

Put these two together and we have Shin'in Tanden or "Mind Seal: Single Transmission" A sealing jutsu that seals information, knowledge, or skill from one person to the next.

I'll bet that when Kishi reveals what Itachi actually did to Sasuke, it won't be something too far from this.