Naruto Manga chapter 393 spoiler discussion thread. - Page 25

FūtonoKyūbi · 12-03-2008, 10:12 PM

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Originally Posted by dpt101

On SasOro and Itachi: I think there are too many ways to look at things. If you argue solely in terms of Sasuke and Itachi, then Itachi won. Unfortunately, you can't argue that way because Oro has been a part of Sasuke and needs to be factored into the equation. Itachi killed himself via overexertion which will almost certainly piss the fuck out of Sasuke. Both were completely exhausted, so you could argue it came out to a Draw. And of course Sasuke survives and Itachi doesn't, so you can argue Sasuke wins. It all depends on how simple or complex you want to make the situation out to be.

When you think about it it was bound to happen. We all knew Saskue was going to survive. We don't have much going as far as spoilers for now other than the pics. I was looking for more of a smack down, ktf out fight. Which we got just a little anti climactic (To say saskue betrayed his comrades, stuffed a pedo in his....heh, and went on about Uchiha genius....Only to get owned by a psychotic half blind uchiha

As far as the winner to this KISHI. He layed the most effective smackdown. Pen and Ink no jutsu. You can't beat that.

Apackof12ninjas · 12-03-2008, 10:14 PM

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Originally Posted by Lokiee

Discussing Orochimaru as a villain doesnt apply to this discussion?

how so?

He escaped again and remained in the story. Thats very relevant if u ask me.

whats your logic?

No its not, Orochimarus character is subject to the manga discussion thread or any other thread where the topic concerns him.

The topic of THIS thread is 393 SPOILER discussion.
You can discuss what occurs or appears to occur in this thread. Diving into discussions about characters and what ifs are not relevent nor on topic

And this isnt a discussion, continue to argue with me about it and you wont be posting in this thread anymore.

Quagz · 12-03-2008, 10:25 PM

spoilers look pretty good but it looks like it going to be those chapters where nothing is really answered which sucks. Itachi hitting him on the forehead is pretty much a ringer of him dying and before that helping his little brother and repenting all he has done. Itachi will become a likable character I suppose (I never really liked him myself).

What kinda sucks as well is that the lesson learned from all this. Sasuke betrayed his best friend and village to go and obtain power from a lunatic and thus far, mission accomplished. Now what does that say? Naruto was wrong and a fool, Sasuke got what he wanted and just defeated two uber akatsuki members in the process and now is getting mega sharingan

I've like sasuke but this is getting ridiculous..oh he's lost oro.. now he has ultimate sharingan, not a bad tradeoff

As the argument of Oro being a good villian or not. I think he's the best villian of the series, he's just so smart and cold and talented. With oro it's always a surprise to see his plans, I guarantee he knew everything about madara an pein and perhaps maybe he's planning for their deaths as well. Sure we haven't seen him go at full power just yet but I think he will trump jairya in terms of awesomeness when he finally does.

**MuKen** · 12-03-2008, 10:26 PM

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Originally Posted by dpt101

And of course Sasuke survives and Itachi doesn't, so you can argue Sasuke wins.

Itachi won the fight the moment he used Amateratsu. He then willingly chose to spare Sasuke because the last thing he wants is Sasuke's precious eyes to be burnt to ash. As a result of that he eventually wore himself down to exhaustion (assuming the spoiler is true). If we're talking about the straight up fight, Itachi beat Sasuke.

YondaimeSamaKun · 12-03-2008, 10:30 PM

I wonder if Sasuke is gonna man up and take those eyes of Itachi's

He Must of realized that him and Orochimaru, werent enough to go up against Itachi's MS so if he truly plans on following his quest of Uchiha Vengeance and Madara really is next on his list.....than he needs Itachi's eyes....he doesnt even stand a chance without them.

Easybigboi · 12-03-2008, 10:33 PM

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Originally Posted by MuKen

Itachi won the fight the moment he used Amateratsu. He then willingly chose to spare Sasuke because the last thing he wants is Sasuke's precious eyes to be burnt to ash. As a result of that he eventually wore himself down to exhaustion (assuming the spoiler is true). If we're talking about the straight up fight, Itachi beat Sasuke.

I don't think so as soon as Amateratsu caught sasuke im sure he used oro's replacement justu because if i remember correctly he came out of his own stomach and itachi stopped the justu when there was only his head and shoulders left... although i do agree itachi basically won the fight

dpt101 · 12-03-2008, 10:35 PM

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Originally Posted by FūtonoKyūbi

When you think about it it was bound to happen. We all knew Saskue was going to survive. We don't have much going as far as spoilers for now other than the pics. I was looking for more of a smack down, ktf out fight. Which we got just a little anti climactic (To say saskue betrayed his comrades, stuffed a pedo in his....heh, and went on about Uchiha genius....Only to get owned by a psychotic half blind uchiha

As far as the winner to this KISHI. He layed the most effective smackdown. Pen and Ink no jutsu. You can't beat that.

And I can see why Kishi wrote out the ending as he did. With the MS, being a prodigy, Itachi needs to be painted as an insanely strong character. You can't have it be any other way. Unfortunately, Sasuke cannot die. He's central to the storyline. So what do you do? Letting Sasuke survive and "win" via Itachi overexerting himself covers everything. Sasuke sees he couldn't beat Itachi, Sasuke lives and keeps his eyes, we have one less character to worry about.

The ending opens up a lot of possibilities down the line, too. As I said, Oro can develop into a better villain following this escape, and he had better if Kishi is so intent on keeping him around. I don't want him to keep coming back because the simple matter is he's not getting any better. Sasuke has a couple different paths now, too. It seems to me that he can't get EMS now, assuming you need to go S, MS, EMS. Also might case some worry on the Akatsuki front. You now have Pein, Koran, Tobi, Zetsu, Kisame. The ranks are thinning out.

dt666999 · 12-03-2008, 10:48 PM

Wow.

It's over. Itachi is gone :(.

My favorite character in all of Naruto is gone.

At least he lived up to what he was capable of at the very end of the battle. I don't really think many characters out there could survive susanoo. That was a ridiculous jutsu.

I think there needs to be a goodbye itachi thread :(.

Goodbye Itachi. You will be missed most of all by your diehard fans :(.

~~Lokiee~~ · 12-03-2008, 10:48 PM

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Originally Posted by MuKen

Itachi won the fight the moment he used Amateratsu. He then willingly chose to spare Sasuke because the last thing he wants is Sasuke's precious eyes to be burnt to ash. As a result of that he eventually wore himself down to exhaustion (assuming the spoiler is true). If we're talking about the straight up fight, Itachi beat Sasuke.

Why do people keep saying this?

Sasuke lives, Itachi died. Therefore the winner is sasuke.

Both of them entered this fight with intentions of gaining something. Itachi wanted sasuke's eyes and sasuke wanted revenge. In the end who succeeded? Thats all that matters to determine who won or loss. The technicalities can be debated but it wouldnt matter cause in the end the winner is still sasuke.

**MuKen** · 12-03-2008, 10:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Easybigboi

I don't think so as soon as Amateratsu caught sasuke im sure he used oro's replacement justu because if i remember correctly he came out of his own stomach and itachi stopped the justu when there was only his head and shoulders left... although i do agree itachi basically won the fight

He was hit, otherwise why is his wing missing? He used the replacement after the hit to get out from the Amateratsu flames that Itachi was still keeping around him

Naruto 390 page 09 | One Manga

but it was by Itachi's will that the fire didn't go straight to his head and kill him.

You can see right in that link that Sasuke doesn't cut the hole in the ground until after he is engulfed by the flames, meaning it is already Itachi's decision that the flames don't cover him completely.

dpt101 · 12-03-2008, 10:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Lokiee

Why do people keep saying this?

Sasuke lives, Itachi died. Therefore the winner is sasuke.

Both of them entered this fight with intentions of gaining something. Itachi wanted sasuke's eyes and sasuke wanted revenge. In the end who succeeded? Thats all that matters to determine who won or loss. The technicalities can be debated but it wouldnt matter cause in the end the winner is still sasuke.

Did Sasuke get revenge, though? That's the question. I feel there's a good chance Sasuke won't think so. Nothing he did could stop Itachi.

~~Lokiee~~ · 12-03-2008, 11:00 PM

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Originally Posted by dpt101

Did Sasuke get revenge, though? That's the question. I feel there's a good chance Sasuke won't think so. Nothing he did could stop Itachi.

well, we'll have to wait and see. Imo he did. He pushed itachi to a point where his heart couldnt beat anymore. He got his revenge

Uchihaeyez · 12-03-2008, 11:02 PM

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Originally Posted by The J-man

Everything has a counter in this manga and don't underestimate Kakashi's speed. Gai said he cut through lightning in the manga my friend. That makes it "canon".

We've never seen Kakashi use a Shunsin like Sasuke has, so Ithink your overestimating his speed.

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Did you even read Part 1? And Kakashi is good at genjutsu and I'm sure he can counter extremely well. Don't forget his KB as well. He knows how to use them well.

Did you ever read Part 1. He got his ass kicked by Tsukuyomi, something Sasuke overcame, and His genjutsu is no where near the level of Itachi's, but Sasuke evenly matched Itachi on genjutsu.

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Zetsu commented about Sasuke? You really need to read the manga. He talked about Itachi not Sasuke.

Do you read the manga? He was refering to Sasuke.

Here he says he can't even see what handsigns Sasuke is using because he's so fast.

Here Sasuke's hand seals aren't even seen, except for the final one.

You can see Itachi's hands move.

Sasuke's hand sign speed kills Itachi's.

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Do I have to repeat his Sharingan mastery is as good as Itachi's and Kakashi isn't slow

Kakashi can't even fully control his MS. And besides your teling me you think Kakashi could overcome Tsukuyomi with his one sharingan, thats ridiculous.

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Let me repeat Kakashi isn't slow. If speed was that much of a factor Deidara would have lasted one chapter against Sasuke.

Once again Hypcritical.

Weren't you saying Itachi had a harder time trying to beat Sasuke because he wasn't trying to kill him? Werent you saying thats the reason ameratsu fully obliterate him because Itachi stopped it to save his eyes.

Well Sasuke was desperatly trying to secure information of Itachi from DD and even stated that he was missing critical points in his body so he could get info without him dying.

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There's always a way to catch or distract your opponent in battle. Is one of the shinobis basic techniques.

That goes for Sasuke doing unto Kakashi.

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I'm not saying is bad but your talking as if this is Sasuke's power and that he's beating Itachi by himself with his own power which clearly isn't case.

I never said Sasuke was beating Itachi.
I even cleary stated In my mind itachi was in the winner of this battle.

I'm just saying Sasuke is seriousley being downplayed because he didn't pwn Itachi, he is still a major powerplayer in this manga.

**MuKen** · 12-03-2008, 11:05 PM

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Originally Posted by Lokiee

Why do people keep saying this?

Sasuke lives, Itachi died. Therefore the winner is sasuke.

The technicalities can be debated but it wouldnt matter cause in the end the winner is still sasuke.

Wouldn't it be you then who is "debating technicalities"? The reason people debate the winners of fights is to say who showed they are stronger. Which is why we are arguing over whether or not Itachi won at the point of amateratsu and willingly chose to forego that victory and continue the fight to his own detriment.

If a guy has another guy down, has the ability to kill him, and chooses not to kill him, that's a victory. By sparing him, he allowed Sasuke to start fighting again, with him at a disadvantage because he expended his eye on the previous fight. You can try and argue and say it's all part of the same fight, but that's clearly an argument of techinicalities.

The very definition of arguing technicalities is arguing labels without a purpose (saying who is stronger).

dpt101 · 12-03-2008, 11:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Lokiee

well, we'll have to wait and see. Imo he did. He pushed itachi to a point where his heart couldnt beat anymore. He got his revenge

I think it's interesting to consider how his perspective on this fight will affect his actions going forward. If he feels the Itachi/Sasuke conflict and vengeance is resolved, does that change his method or urgency going forward with chasing Madara? Does he try to go after Madara, only to be beaten? Does he decide to kill Naruto in an attempt to strengthen himself for his Madara fight?

~~Lokiee~~ · 12-03-2008, 11:14 PM

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Originally Posted by MuKen

Wouldn't it be you then who is "debating technicalities"? The reason people are debating is to say who showed they are stronger. Which is why we are arguing over whether or not Itachi won at the point of amateratsu and willingly chose to forego that victory and continue the fight to his own detriment.

If you want to say "well maybe he's stronger, but technically the 'winner' is the one who got what he wants" then it is you who are arguing technicalities.

No, you the one saying "Itachi won"

But he didnt. Clearly he's stronger than sasuke but he still lost.

Since when battles are decided by who's more potent?

My Point is this. Itachi may have been stronger, thats a given. But he lost. There's no point is debating who won. It wasnt a double KO/Kill

Rurouni272000 · 12-03-2008, 11:19 PM

To those that claim Sasuke only survived because Itachi canceled Amaterasu:

Look at the picture of Sasuke after Itachi stopped Amaterasu. He is a black smudge on the ground, nothing left but his arm and head basically. It is obvious that Sasuke must have used Oro's replacement prior to that.

Look at the first page of the mini-flashback. Sasuke did a little chidori or something on the ground where he landed, making a hole through the roof. Then Sasuke splooged out of his own stomach into the room.

What happened was Sasuke knew that Itachi was going to use Amaterasu in this fight and knew that he only had one way out of it--in fact, he used it to his own advantage. Notice how he still had his CS2 wing when he was running from Amaterasu? Intentional, because he wanted to make sure that the black fire hit his expendable wing and not somethig like his body or head. So he fell to the ground, but before his actual body started on fire he used Oro's replacement and went through the roof into the building. The body that got completely burned to a black smudge was his old body, his replacement body, the body he left behind after splooging out of his own gut. So when Itachi went over to get the eyes he was right where Sasuke, who was below wanted him, and bigass fire dragons erupted from below. Itachi himself said that Oro's replacement technique is difficult to detect and that's why he didn't notice that his Amaterasu was not killing the "real" Sasuke.

So that's what actually happened with that scene, take it or leave it. Hopefully you take it, because if you leave it you're making incorrect analysis of that scene. Word.

**MuKen** · 12-03-2008, 11:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Lokiee

There's no point is debating who won.

There are many ways to define a victor, it is only under your definition that there is no point. We are obviously using different definitions, which is fine. I have no problem saying Sasuke won the fight under your definition. What's absurd is that you are saying I am the one arguing technicalities.

A technicality is just that: a point of no significance. Your definition of a victor has no significance, mine does, therefore you are the one arguing technicalities.

I am using the word victor to mean the one who demonstrates his superiority. This is a definition of significance; it has a point because it allows us to talk about who is stronger. You define the victor to be the first to kill, regardless of if that kill becomes from the opponent's own sacrifices.

In a fight, if you tap out and "give up", and then KO the guy from the back when he gets off of you, you'd call that a victory.

You can sit there and say "he's standing and his opponent is down, so he's the winner of the fight" if you want, but it's clearly you who are discussing technicalities.

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Originally Posted by Rurouni272000

So he fell to the ground, but before his actual body started on fire he used Oro's replacement and went through the roof into the building.

Naruto 390 page 09 | One Manga

I posted this before, it CLEARLY shows that Sasuke is initiating his replacement after his entire body is on fire.

He's on fire, and not dead, this is because, as I said, Itachi is choosing for the flame not to burn him away to nothing.

And in the first picture, he's not just a "black smudge with nothing left but the head and arm", otherwise Itachi would be able to see the hole. The flames are smoldering away because Itachi stopped them from burning through him completely.

The J-man · 12-03-2008, 11:31 PM

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