Naruto Manga chapter 397 discussion.

[waqo]

Originally Posted by scarr09

@waqo you talking about me? or the guy below me

and im just trying to point out that if im right which i think i am then sauske did get a power boost but not an enormous one and his abilities have totally shifted in a different direction as before

relax! i was talking abt zetsu=pain... and yes your deductions are right due to losing the curse seal and oro from inside of him sasuke has lost a lot of the powers that it gave him. like the white snake healing, we also know that this was part of madara's plan when he was sitting on that statue wondering if sasuke would 'shed that snake skin' and soar like a hawk or something along those lines.

That line is crucial to this current scenario i think, because it shows that even the last couple of actions of itachi's seem to coincide with madara's wishes it just too convenient for that to happen by chance, somethign sinister is happening and madara cannot be trusted. more on this in the itachi thread next week after the details are revealed.

[gaarasenpu]

it was a good chapter in my opinion it's just that some things were too obvious

[Sarah]

I just got a chance to read the chapter.
I am at a standstill and I really don't know if I like where this is going. Itachi was like the best villian so far and now he totally turned in to a pussy-lovey-dovey-greater-good guy? Now, I hope that Sasuke doesn't snap and we have to go through his emotional self loathing turmoil shit again. Wtf sasuke gets another power-up? When is that guy going to stop being such a spoiled shit. I mean Sasuke's whole motto is 'I do all the wrong things and I just get more and more powerful and I lose nothing because everyone just keeps falling in love with me and my only real problems are my own fragile ego and my inability to not have mental break downs'

I'm also getting so sick of Naruto whining about Sasuke when can they just meet and bring closure to that 300 chapter mess.

[l0rdza0n]

Originally Posted by Sarah

I just got a chance to read the chapter.
I am at a standstill and I really don't know if I like where this is going. Itachi was like the best villian so far and now he totally turned in to a pussy-lovey-dovey-greater-good guy?

I don't think they're saying Itachi's a goody-goody..

they're giving us the TRUTH and the HISTORY behind a man we know so very very VERY little of..

in the end.. Itachi is a bad dude.. he *HAS* to be bad to the bone to be accepted by Akatsuki.. there's nothing good in Itachi when he became Akatsuki

*BUT* he did it all for love and to do a greater good..

he's a very complex character right now.. I don't know how many people here saw 3:10 to Yuma but in some ways Itachi is a lot like Ben Wade.. like a scene in it where the Outlaw Ben Wade tells the kid that he's rotten and he's a bad guy.. because his outfit will not follow anything else than someone truly bad

it's like that with Itachi.. he *IS* a bad guy.. but we're seeing now the motivation and drive and secrets he's kept hidden from everyone.. I for one like it

[Rurouni272000]

Its too early to say what the deal is with Itachi... its obvious that he's not really a good guy, because no good guy, no matter the reasons, does all the shit Itachi did. But it is obvious that Itachi had motives unknown to anyone, and most likely we little people won't be able to sit here and figure it out overnight. I say that we all reserve judgement on the pussiness or awesomeness of Itachi until after we know exactly what Madara's going to tell us.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by l0rdza0n

I don't think they're saying Itachi's a goody-goody..

they're giving us the TRUTH and the HISTORY behind a man we know so very very VERY little of..

in the end.. Itachi is a bad dude.. he *HAS* to be bad to the bone to be accepted by Akatsuki.. there's nothing good in Itachi when he became Akatsuki

*BUT* he did it all for love and to do a greater good..

he's a very complex character right now.. I don't know how many people here saw 3:10 to Yuma but in some ways Itachi is a lot like Ben Wade.. like a scene in it where the Outlaw Ben Wade tells the kid that he's rotten and he's a bad guy.. because his outfit will not follow anything else than someone truly bad

it's like that with Itachi.. he *IS* a bad guy.. but we're seeing now the motivation and drive and secrets he's kept hidden from everyone.. I for one like it

Nobody in Naruto has clean hands, but I really wanted Itachi to be the one who is just evil. And where is this notion that being evil makes you less complex or deep come from? Now there is no one left to fill the villian role. Tobi/madra walks around like an idiot and pien or whatever seems to be in tis same boat as this new Itachi. Evidently doing things for the greater good. Who else do we really care about? diedra, hidan, kazu or whatever please those people are just measuring sticks.

Now I won't be able to stop thinking we are going to go into another shitty sasuke trauma about 'I killed the brother who love me so boohoo'. Then he goes crazy does the wrong thing and somehow gets even more power and more 'bad guys' hand him shit. Sasuke has become the power whore. He'll let anyone use him so he can get more powerful.

[Quagz]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Nobody in Naruto has clean hands, but I really wanted Itachi to be the one who is just evil. And where is this notion that being evil makes you less complex or deep come from? Now there is no one left to fill the villian role. Tobi/madra walks around like an idiot and pien or whatever seems to be in tis same boat as this new Itachi. Evidently doing things for the greater good. Who else do we really care about? diedra, hidan, kazu or whatever please those people are just measuring sticks.

Now I won't be able to stop thinking we are going to go into another shitty sasuke trauma about 'I killed the brother who love me so boohoo'. Then he goes crazy does the wrong thing and somehow gets even more power and more 'bad guys' hand him shit. Sasuke has become the power whore. He'll let anyone use him so he can get more powerful.

pein doing things for the greater good?

he wants to destroy all shinobi so everyone can feel his pain O.o


Also tobi and pein seem like the ultimate villains so is oro, we have plenty of villians with their own agendas. Itachi being the main villain doesn't even make sense, if anything he was the measuring stick for sasuke.

Sasuke's last obstacle is Madara, how it will play out is anyones guess

[Insin]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Nobody in Naruto has clean hands, but I really wanted Itachi to be the one who is just evil. And where is this notion that being evil makes you less complex or deep come from? Now there is no one left to fill the villian role. Tobi/madra walks around like an idiot and pien or whatever seems to be in tis same boat as this new Itachi. Evidently doing things for the greater good. Who else do we really care about? diedra, hidan, kazu or whatever please those people are just measuring sticks.

Yup, I agree. I'd also add that Orochimaru was a good villian. By comparison, Tobi and Pein are just pathetic/crappy villians. I liked Tobi a lot better before he was all powerhouse and ultimate super uchihaness. Pein is just a flat and stale character, with the typical cliche "war to end all wars" savior-god-complex.

This new chapter has me pissed, for several reasons. First of all, it's just shitty to try and develop a character like Itachi after he dies. Where was the character development while he was alive? As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter if Itachi is a good guy now or not, who cares? He's dead. It's a poor way to write.

Secondly, I think we all know the real reason why this plot twist is happening. If Itachi really was bad to the bone, than there would be no need to incorporate Sasuke into the story, because his loose ends would be tied up. This new plot "twist" is probably just so Sasuke can have another arc to do something, and to explain Sasuke's random win in the last fight. Most Itachi fans are probably estatic right now, but I'm actually pissed. Itachi was clearly NOT a good guy, seeing how he tortured Kakashi and beat the crap out of his little brother several times.

[Poncho Sama]

Originally Posted by Insin

Yup, I agree. I'd also add that Orochimaru was a good villian. By comparison, Tobi and Pein are just pathetic/crappy villians. I liked Tobi a lot better before he was all powerhouse and ultimate super uchihaness. Pein is just a flat and stale character, with the typical cliche "war to end all wars" savior-god-complex.

This new chapter has me pissed, for several reasons. First of all, it's just shitty to try and develop a character like Itachi after he dies. Where was the character development while he was alive? As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter if Itachi is a good guy now or not, who cares? He's dead. It's a poor way to write.

Secondly, I think we all know the real reason why this plot twist is happening. If Itachi really was bad to the bone, than there would be no need to incorporate Sasuke into the story, because his loose ends would be tied up. This new plot "twist" is probably just so Sasuke can have another arc to do something, and to explain Sasuke's random win in the last fight. Most Itachi fans are probably estatic right now, but I'm actually pissed. Itachi was clearly NOT a good guy, seeing how he tortured Kakashi and beat the crap out of his little brother several times.

We don't know enough about Pain to say he is a bad villain. But the dude did just kill of a MAJOR character so that makes him pretty bad IMO. Also Tobi/Madara has a long history of being evil. He is the one constant in this whole story. Hokages comes and go but Madara still survives. That makes him a good villain as well.

And anyone without fanboy glasses on could see that Itachi wasn't fighting like himself. There should have been no way Sasuke could have made itachi work that hard. Kishi just confirmed our suspicions that he was injured in some way before the fight. And beating up sasuke multiple times makes Itachi a good guy in my book.

[Rollin 20's]

itachi was coughing up blood all throughout the fight so he probaly wasnt at the top of his game but it seems as he let sasuke kill him and left him to kill madara which makes itachi a good guy in my book :p

[waqo]

Originally Posted by ponchocam

And beating up sasuke multiple times makes Itachi a good guy in my book.

lolz @ that.... i loved itachi's character, if only sasuke would have got similar genetic info to him he may have been worth dying for... *sigh* sadly tht's far from the case....

[Insin]

Originally Posted by ponchocam

We don't know enough about Pain to say he is a bad villain. But the dude did just kill of a MAJOR character so that makes him pretty bad IMO.

It's sad when the merit of a villian is how super strong he is, or whether or not he kills major characters. By your argument, Majin Buu was the best DBZ villian because he killed just about everyone.

Also Tobi/Madara has a long history of being evil. He is the one constant in this whole story. Hokages comes and go but Madara still survives. That makes him a good villain as well.

I could write a story, and then randomly decide to make a minor villian the major one, just because I feel like surprising people. It doesn't mean I'm telling a great story. I was not really against Tobi being the secret leader of Akatsuki, but this whole super mangekyou thing feels like it was just created to make Tobi more powerhouse than Itachi and to exceed the Rinnegan. The fact that he's old doesn't make him a good villian either, otherwise Kakuzu should be up there. I feel like if you rate villians on how strong they are, then sure, Pein and Tobi are awesome. But in terms of what their personalities and motives are like (and how they go about achieiving them) you just can't say they are awesome villians. Orochimaru was like the Darth Vader of Naruto, and just because Darth Maul had a double bladed lightsaber (rinnegan/super sharingan in Naruto) does that mean he's now the best?

[Poncho Sama]

Originally Posted by Insin

It's sad when the merit of a villian is how super strong he is, or whether or not he kills major characters. By your argument, Majin Buu was the best DBZ villian because he killed just about everyone.



I could write a story, and then randomly decide to make a minor villian the major one, just because I feel like surprising people. It doesn't mean I'm telling a great story. I was not really against Tobi being the secret leader of Akatsuki, but this whole super mangekyou thing feels like it was just created to make Tobi more powerhouse than Itachi and to exceed the Rinnegan. The fact that he's old doesn't make him a good villian either, otherwise Kakuzu should be up there. I feel like if you rate villians on how strong they are, then sure, Pein and Tobi are awesome. But in terms of what their personalities and motives are like (and how they go about achieiving them) you just can't say they are awesome villians. Orochimaru was like the Darth Vader of Naruto, and just because Darth Maul had a double bladed lightsaber (rinnegan/super sharingan in Naruto) does that mean he's now the best?

Orochimaru is a good villain in your mind because he was the first. You have fond memories of that part of Naruto. But if you compare him to Madara his role as a villain pales in comparison. Orochimaru has a good personality I give you that but his motives are just as suspect as Pain's and we have yet to see what Madara's true goals are (beside reviving his power). Think about that Madara is ridiculously strong and he is fighting at full strength. Thats sick! If anything Madara is the emperor and Itachi is Darth Vader in this story.

BTW, I hate Buu. And I doubt you could write a 400 chapter manga. No offense. It pisses me off when people say those kinds of things.

[Insin]

Originally Posted by ponchocam

Orochimaru is a good villain in your mind because he was the first. You have fond memories of that part of Naruto.

Wrong, I thought he was sort of lame at first. But by the time the Chunnin arc ended I had more respect for him, because he had weaknesses and fought dirty. I also liked it when he lost his arms and got his ass beat.

But if you compare him to Madara his role as a villain pales in comparison. Orochimaru has a good personality I give you that but his motives are just as suspect as Pain's and we have yet to see what Madara's true goals are (beside reviving his power).

Orochimarus goal was lame, but the way he went about doing things...curse seal, experiments, forbidden jutsus, messing with his body, was what made him interesting.

Think about that Madara is ridiculously strong and he is fighting at full strength. Thats sick! If anything Madara is the emperor and Itachi is Darth Vader in this story.

Again, ridiculously strong means absolutely nothing if the villian is uninteresting. I've said this more than once now.

And I doubt you could write a 400 chapter manga. No offense. It pisses me off when people say those kinds of things.

Nor would I try. But I guess I shouldn't offer any literary criticism either. In fact, no one should except for maybe Akira Toriyama, Tite Kubo, and a few others because they are the only ones who have written 300+ chapter mangas.

I have already stated my reasons why I think this is a poor move story wise and why the character development is poorly designed. In my personal opinion, I think a lot of people like Naruto because Kishi uses what I like to call "The Da Vinci Code" effect. Essentially, for every mystery that he clears up, he has to add 4-5 more so that the reader stays engrossed. It's not a bad style, but when used all the time it gets old. And I think this works to the detriment of the manga. For instance, Pein's character development is stunted so that the "mystery" surrounding him remains. Sure, people want to know what his deal is, but I think it works against the character itself, which is why he appears to be so flat. And by the time this mystery is cleared, he'll probably die and then another mystery will pop up. And with this recent chapter, I think the same applies. It's working against Itachi's character to have a character follow one path the entire 400 chapters, and then suddenly change tunes after he dies for shock value or whatever. But obviously you have a different idea of what constitutes a good villian and good story. Let's leave it there.

[Lord_Sasori]

Originally Posted by Insin

Yup, I agree. I'd also add that Orochimaru was a good villian. By comparison, Tobi and Pein are just pathetic/crappy villians. I liked Tobi a lot better before he was all powerhouse and ultimate super uchihaness. Pein is just a flat and stale character, with the typical cliche "war to end all wars" savior-god-complex.

This new chapter has me pissed, for several reasons. First of all, it's just shitty to try and develop a character like Itachi after he dies. Where was the character development while he was alive? As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter if Itachi is a good guy now or not, who cares? He's dead. It's a poor way to write.

Secondly, I think we all know the real reason why this plot twist is happening. If Itachi really was bad to the bone, than there would be no need to incorporate Sasuke into the story, because his loose ends would be tied up. This new plot "twist" is probably just so Sasuke can have another arc to do something, and to explain Sasuke's random win in the last fight. Most Itachi fans are probably estatic right now, but I'm actually pissed. Itachi was clearly NOT a good guy, seeing how he tortured Kakashi and beat the crap out of his little brother several times.

Honestly all villains are the same. Most villains want to take over the world or have complete solid control. If you think about it, Madara's goals isn't really that far off from Pein. He wants to take over countries himself. It's all the same.

Im with you on Itachi. I think Kishimoto is developing Sasuke more but he doesnt need to make Itachi a good guy by doing it. I was perfectly fine with Sasuke killing Itachi and Madara and then starting his own family, "resurrecting" the uchiha clan all over again. That is his goal in this series, well will be soon enough.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by ponchocam

We don't know enough about Pain to say he is a bad villain. But the dude did just kill of a MAJOR character so that makes him pretty bad IMO. Also Tobi/Madara has a long history of being evil. He is the one constant in this whole story. Hokages comes and go but Madara still survives. That makes him a good villain as well.

And anyone without fanboy glasses on could see that Itachi wasn't fighting like himself. There should have been no way Sasuke could have made itachi work that hard. Kishi just confirmed our suspicions that he was injured in some way before the fight. And beating up sasuke multiple times makes Itachi a good guy in my book.

I mean pein wants to make a weapon to end all wars that could be thought of as noble in a way. Its not like i think he's a shitty villian its just some trauma happenend and he seems like a redeemable person like zabuza gaara and sasori and they are fine to have in a story. But Itachi seemed different i wanted him just to be a badass sadist rotten to the core not doing eerything for the love of his brother.

I don't doubt tobi's strength or evilness, but he walk around acting like a dumbass. How can I take him seriously?

Originally Posted by Quagz

pein doing things for the greater good?

he wants to destroy all shinobi so everyone can feel his pain O.o


Also tobi and pein seem like the ultimate villains so is oro, we have plenty of villians with their own agendas. Itachi being the main villain doesn't even make sense, if anything he was the measuring stick for sasuke.

Sasuke's last obstacle is Madara, how it will play out is anyones guess

Sasuke will become a whore like he did for oro to some powerful guy, probably madara and he'll beat him.

[Poncho Sama]

Originally Posted by Sarah

I mean pein wants to make a weapon to end all wars that could be thought of as noble in a way. Its not like i think he's a shitty villian its just some trauma happenend and he seems like a redeemable person like zabuza gaara and sasori and they are fine to have in a story. But Itachi seemed different i wanted him just to be a badass sadist rotten to the core not doing eerything for the love of his brother.

I don't doubt tobi's strength or evilness, but he walk around acting like a dumbass. How can I take him seriously?

Pain does seem like a redeemable person if Pain is actually human which I don't think he is. When we finally meet Nagato I think the character of Pain will get a new level depth.

Itachi had so much potential to be a major villain. But Sasuke had to get his revenge so he ends up on the wrong end of the plot stick

Tobi's dull personalities bothers me a little. Cause I can't figure it out. He's like the joker.

[Gathan]

Originally Posted by Sarah

I mean pein wants to make a weapon to end all wars that could be thought of as noble in a way. Its not like i think he's a shitty villian its just some trauma happenend and he seems like a redeemable person like zabuza gaara and sasori and they are fine to have in a story. But Itachi seemed different i wanted him just to be a badass sadist rotten to the core not doing eerything for the love of his brother.

Using Pain's twisted logic if he wanted peace in Narutoverse he should just kill everybody, because as long as people exist so will wars, killing most of the population is only going to reduce the size of the wars.
I seriously wonder what his thinking "Oh yes I'm God therefore my logic of nuking most of the population to end wars is correct"
When I heard that bullshit plan I was like that shits seriously is never going to work, ever