Naruto Manga chapter 398 discussion.

[l0rdza0n]

Originally Posted by ShadeNinja

Sarutobi loved the village and everyone in it. He would ONLY attack the Uchihas if he thought they were a threat to the village, and a clan like that could be a threat to whoever they wanted. As we all know, the Uchihas possessed the power to potentially control the Kyuubi, and after the Kyuubi attacked once and did so much damage, they were probably willing to do anything to make sure it didn't happen again.

Itachi probably informed the higher ups of an Uchiha rebellion, and they asked him to solve their problem.

He was the strongest Uchiha other than Madara, and as we all know, the best person to fight a sharingan, is another person with the sharingan. He was the only one who could kill the Uchiha. He left his brother alive because of obvious reasons, although there are probably a few reasons we aren't clear on yet.

It should ahve been obvious that the Uchiha were up to soemthing. if you think about it, the Kyuubi attacked, and anyone with a sharingan should have been able to stop it, but instead it took the death of Yondaime to do it. Why?

They wanted it to succeed

Just a guess

hence the timeline it truly unfolds once everything's laid out..

i just wanna know for sure that
kyuubi-attack
minato death

came before the Uchiha Massacre (I think it did, I'm almost certain)

and if so.. then most definitely that could've been the catalyst as to why the hit was ordered.. and yes a lot of things come into light now

if a developed sharingan can control the kyuubi.. how come no Uchihas were present that night of the attack?

ooo lotsa juicy details and if i was sarutobi.. knowing what i knew.. and seeing that it took the life of the 4th hokage, the most important shinobi of their village at that time.. yep, too high a price to pay

Uchihas were too dangerous to be allowed to live

..there's also another light to this.. the night of the Uchiha massacre.. there was also something else that happened.. it was the night Uchiha Itachi died.. because i don't care how loyal you are to your duty or whatever.. something dies in you if you have to kill your own kin.. I think Itachi died that night as well and that's when Akatsuki-Itachi was born

but there's still a lot we don't know

Originally Posted by ponchocam

Your timeline is a little off.

it's not really an official timeline i was making an example

laying things out

all the numbering/years/etc are all junk, lol

the facts however, are not

[SHADENINJA]

Of coarse it did

The Kyuubi attacka nd Yondaime's death happened right after Naruto was born, and Sasuke and Naruto are around the same age. Sasuke was already around 8 or 9 when Itachi killed the uchiha

[kolod]

btw, im really starting to think sasuke is going to join madara and akatsuki so he can get revenge on konoha. madara probably just wants a new uchiha like itachi in his organization, and sasuke won't care if it was a just cause, he'll wanna get rid of those who took down his clan. then madara probably get suigetsu to replace kisame, and karin and juugo to replace whoever else. and suddenly hebi becomes the new akatsuki.

[IonRom]

This chapter is full contradictions: the timeline, part of the story of the foundation of Konoha, the clan extermination and who order it. It' s against most of the story told in Naruto until now.
Madara and Itachi version about the clan is contradictory in Madara story the clan is powerful, feared with a single equal who is going to be destroyed by it' s companions; in Itachi story the clan is slowly being destroyed by it' s history, losing their power, status in Konoha.
One question I still have: why the Third or the elders didn' t killed Sasuke the next day? The promise to Itachi could be broken easily, especially that he wasn' t around and even if he did he couldn' t take the whole village with the MS powers. Why keep in the village a future problem?
Itachi also could leave him in the care of other people. The Uchihas seemed to have friends, bases, storage areas outside Konoha.

[DaikuYukihiro]

Has anyone entertained the possibility that Itachi was under the tutelage of Danzou and was a member of ANBU's Root? He has shown similar characteristics to emotion training members like Sai had received in that group. Perhaps the order to eliminate the Uchihas came from Danzou and was backed by the 2 elders, forcing the 3rd's hand, or perhaps like we've seen with Root's operations, conducted without the Hokage's knowledge until the deed was done. Perhaps it was Danzou who knew about Madara and conspired with him to wipe out the clan.

[Blackghost164]

Originally Posted by IonRom

This chapter is full contradictions: the timeline, part of the story of the foundation of Konoha, the clan extermination and who order it. It' s against most of the story told in Naruto until now.
Madara and Itachi version about the clan is contradictory in Madara story the clan is powerful, feared with a single equal who is going to be destroyed by it' s companions; in Itachi story the clan is slowly being destroyed by it' s history, losing their power, status in Konoha.
One question I still have: why the Third or the elders didn' t killed Sasuke the next day? The promise to Itachi could be broken easily, especially that he wasn' t around and even if he did he couldn' t take the whole village with the MS powers. Why keep in the village a future problem?
Itachi also could leave him in the care of other people. The Uchihas seemed to have friends, bases, storage areas outside Konoha.

the story is not that contradictory in the sasuke vs itachi fight itachi even said that the clan was cursed because they couldnt stop flaunting their power, so he never says that they were becoming weaker

also we never knew y itachi really killed the clan so this chapter just cleared it up a little

and madara's explination isnt done i bet we have at least a couple more chapters of background

with sasuke im sure the third was keeping an eye on him, right when the third died sasuke left, and when they finally figured out where he was danzo tried to kill him

[Why not]

In my opinion Itachi acted as a double agent for both sides.

He kinda reminds me on Serverus Snape.

I think that he was Jiraiyas Spy all the time because he always worked against Akatsuki and Uchiha Madara. And also who else could be Jiraiys spy in Akatsuki?

[Yoshitsune]

Originally Posted by Why not

In my opinion Itachi acted as a double agent for both sides.

He kinda reminds me on Serverus Snape.

I think that he was Jiraiyas Spy all the time because he always worked against Akatsuki and Uchiha Madara. And also who else could be Jiraiys spy in Akatsuki?

i don't think generally he was jiraiya's spy because even when they met each other jiraiya was so serious about it and fight them in the toad frog trying to catch them untill Itachi escaped with using Amaterasu


this is to far

Jiraiya info come from the way he spy did you noticed how he enter pain base by being in a little frog mouth where no one can notice him untill he get out ,he still got many ways to spy

and i don't think the akatsuki will be that stupid or weak to let someone be their a spy againts them in the organisation even kabuto was watched

[Naruto_shi3]

Originally Posted by Quagz

hmm I do agree with you but maybe after the fact that uchiha clan was destroyed that the hyuugas became the oldest clan

I do agree that the hyuuga are being left out way too much in the scehe of everything


edit: I just had a thought, neji was right all along about destiny. Remember chuunin exams how we all thought naruto was a little orphan boy with a demon, well he's the son of a hokage and destined to be hokage. Naruto argued with neji but in the end he was pretty much wrong

also



Well think about it, he's like family and his father saved their asses by sacrificing himself. Hell the third was the same way to naruto when naruto was nothing but a trouble maker.

Naruto might actually be related to the Fisrt Hokage. Don't forget we kno nothing of his father side of the family.

[Nakano]

Originally Posted by Naruto_shi3

Naruto might actually be related to the Fisrt Hokage. Don't forget we kno nothing of his father side of the family.

no i dont think so because they have tsunade relating to the first so i highly dought that she will be related to the 4th too.

[Gathan]

So let me get this right the uchiha clan summoned the Kybuui, and that justified killing every last man, woman, and child?
Unless of course this manga has became so sadistic and Kishi is saying that everybody else besides Itachi and Sasuke helped summon the thing.
Top that all off with Sarutobi being in on the uchiha massacre as well, this has suddenly become a much, much darker story.

[apih86]

this chapter make the story even more complicated..huhu

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by OpTiMuSGOTFRAG

Let us not doubt the Third Hokage.

Why? You should always question everything, to not is the way of fools.

Originally Posted by Optim

Are we forgetting that Madara is a bad person? Why wouldn't he massage the truth a little bit to cast a negative light on a Hokage he likely despised.

Ok so you are proposing he could be lying or stretching the truth, in that case questioning the 3rd hokage is of no relevance since madara could be lying.

Originally Posted by Optim

Haven't we seen from Tsunade's encounter with those 2 older advisors that they clearly hold a lot of weight, power and influence? I could very easily see the Third being overruled by a majority vote amongst the other elders along with Danzou.

Uhh it doesnt work like that.
Atleast we have not been shown that it does.
The advisors do not have power of ovverrule, they can say "Do this, do that" but as we have seen the hokage has absolute word, or atleast no one overrules them.

Originally Posted by Optim

If the Third really did go along with it then perhaps there is more than meets the eye about the rose-tinted glass look of the Uchiha clan Sasuke thought he knew.

Still unless the uchihas did somthing very dispicable, or were planning too, or there justifiable intelligence pointing towards somthing bad, im starting to doubt my judgement of sarutobi. He just doenst seem to be the kind of person who would give such an order, hell he doesnt seem like the kind of person who would concede such an order is justified or neccisary, and i cant see him going along with it either.

Which leads me to assume that paticular statement made by tobi is a big lie.
Im would think he is lying to anger sasuke, enrage sasuke into believing that the village he grew up in, and used to care for hated him and his entire clan.
Or thought of them as such a danger that they should all be annalihated.

Originally Posted by dpt101

You may have answered your first question here. I believe it says something to the effect of Itachi "destroying his sense of self" which would definitely mean he was not afraid to place his personal feelings aside for his mission.

No thats not what im asking, i understood the part where he destroyed his sense of self to go along with the mission.
But not all shinobi can do that, not even the strong ones.

The white fang for instance, probably in the same class as the sannins failed to destroy his sense of self on a mission, and becuase of the subsequent shame brought upon him, he comitted suicide.

But in that situation, it was simply a choice of saving his freinds or finishing the mission.
In itachis case, its pratically genocide.
What i want to know was, what was so terrible or dangerous about the uchihas that would drive itachi to destroy his sense of self, kill his mother and father in cold blood, along with everyone else.

Only the type of shinobi danzou train go to that extreme, destroy all emotions or all emotional ties to fullfill a mission.
And it then comes full circle back to sarutobi, he doesnt strike me as the type of person who condones, or even promotes that type of shinobi.

Didnt he say we should do everything we can to protect our freinds?
Did he not promote freindship and love, not emotional cutoff for the good of an order or a mission? Wasnt that danzou's philosophy, didnt tsunade explain that the third hokage was the opposite?
And if he did believe in the latter, then his statements about freindship were nothing but lies.
A subterfuge to the actual workings of konoha.

Originally Posted by sdfasdfsd

Considering that Danzou knew about the plan, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he had trained Itachi. While it wouldn't make Itachi a moral human being it would certainly make him one of, if not the, most devoted shinobi that we've seen from Konoha.

Another semi contradiction, since when did the third hokage work in conjunction with danzou? They were political rivals and from what i have been told, disliked eachother(atleast on danzou's end) now all of a sudden itachi is a root anbu?

According to tsunade, their political ideologies were polar opposites, now they were supposedly secretly collaborating?

Danzou training itachi would explain how itachi could destroy his sense of self for the mission, but it wouldnt explain the fact that supposedly danzou was not associated with the hokage or atleast not in offilation.

Originally Posted by dfdsfasdf

Still, somebody else brought up a good point: Itachi was ordered to destroy the clan, so why is Sasuke alive? Did they tell him not to kill Sasuke because he was a child? Did they feel it wasn't important for Sasuke to be taken out? Or did Itachi plead with them until they allowed it to happen?

I doubt they told him not to kill sasuke becuase he was a child, unless you are going to claim that sasuke was the only uchiha child during that time.

There had to of been other uchiha children.
Another enigma that only leaves more questions and less answers.

Originally Posted by dfsdfsdfs

Just a thought: It doesn't need to mean that the Hyuuga are one of the founding or first clans in the village. If they are the oldest clan in the village, he can be referencing their existing long before the village was created.

Yes i have already conceded this possibility, however their absence in the founding of konoha is very suspect.

[NarutoSamaman]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Why? You should always question everything, to not is the way of fools.



Ok so you are proposing he could be lying or stretching the truth, in that case questioning the 3rd hokage is of no relevance since madara could be lying.



Uhh it doesnt work like that.
Atleast we have not been shown that it does.
The advisors do not have power of ovverrule, they can say "Do this, do that" but as we have seen the hokage has absolute word, or atleast no one overrules them.



Still unless the uchihas did somthing very dispicable, or were planning too, or there justifiable intelligence pointing towards somthing bad, im starting to doubt my judgement of sarutobi. He just doenst seem to be the kind of person who would give such an order, hell he doesnt seem like the kind of person who would concede such an order is justified or neccisary, and i cant see him going along with it either.

Which leads me to assume that paticular statement made by tobi is a big lie.
Im would think he is lying to anger sasuke, enrage sasuke into believing that the village he grew up in, and used to care for hated him and his entire clan.
Or thought of them as such a danger that they should all be annalihated.



No thats not what im asking, i understood the part where he destroyed his sense of self to go along with the mission.
But not all shinobi can do that, not even the strong ones.

The white fang for instance, probably in the same class as the sannins failed to destroy his sense of self on a mission, and becuase of the subsequent shame brought upon him, he comitted suicide.

But in that situation, it was simply a choice of saving his freinds or finishing the mission.
In itachis case, its pratically genocide.
What i want to know was, what was so terrible or dangerous about the uchihas that would drive itachi to destroy his sense of self, kill his mother and father in cold blood, along with everyone else.

Only the type of shinobi danzou train go to that extreme, destroy all emotions or all emotional ties to fullfill a mission.
And it then comes full circle back to sarutobi, he doesnt strike me as the type of person who condones, or even promotes that type of shinobi.

Didnt he say we should do everything we can to protect our freinds?
Did he not promote freindship and love, not emotional cutoff for the good of an order or a mission? Wasnt that danzou's philosophy, didnt tsunade explain that the third hokage was the opposite?
And if he did believe in the latter, then his statements about freindship were nothing but lies.
A subterfuge to the actual workings of konoha.





Another semi contradiction, since when did the third hokage work in conjunction with danzou? They were political rivals and from what i have been told, disliked eachother(atleast on danzou's end) now all of a sudden itachi is a root anbu?

According to tsunade, their political ideologies were polar opposites, now they were supposedly secretly collaborating?

Danzou training itachi would explain how itachi could destroy his sense of self for the mission, but it wouldnt explain the fact that supposedly danzou was not associated with the hokage or atleast not in offilation.



I doubt they told him not to kill sasuke becuase he was a child, unless you are going to claim that sasuke was the only uchiha child during that time.

There had to of been other uchiha children.
Another enigma that only leaves more questions and less answers.





Yes i have already conceded this possibility, however their absence in the founding of konoha is very suspect.

Well we know for a fact that the third has conceded when it is for the greater good sacrifices may have to be made ie: neji's father for instance.

But I agree it seems shocking that the third could condone this unless there was a real plan to takedown the village but I find it hard to see why they had to exterminate all the Uchiha clan if that was the case. There would have been alot of innocent people in the clan who also would have been destroyed.

But if Madara is lying, he doesn't seem to be taking the tone that Itachi was evil, he was actually saying Itachi was a hero for doing what he did. Also Madara helped Itachi kill the Uchiha's or that's the info that I gathered so I don't see what motives Madara would have for lying. If he wants to create venom in Sasuke that the Uchiha's were hated all along the fact that Madara helped wipe them out surely can't sit too well with Sasuke.

[marti810]

im not believing madara, reason being if the hokage wanted all the uchihas dead, why not just kill sasuke after itachi left. Madara has to be spinning the truth.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by NarutoSamaman

Well we know for a fact that the third has conceded when it is for the greater good sacrifices may have to be made ie: neji's father for instance.

Not really the same situation, neji's father... a grown man suggested it.

Originally Posted by NarutoSamaman

But if Madara is lying, he doesn't seem to be taking the tone that Itachi was evil, he was actually saying Itachi was a hero for doing what he did.

Its possible that tobi is saying all this so that sasuke might reignite the love he used to feel for his brother, before he killed off the clan.

He could be saying this, to manipulate sasuke into hating konoha....in order for him to bring out those emotions he needs to rekindle the love sasuke once felt for itachi, remember he kept saying"Remember your loving brother" he would then need to come up with a story that wouldnt put itachi in the bad light, but of the ones who ordered him to carry out the assasination mission.

It's possible he wants to destroy the feelings of hate he has towards his brother, and develop new hateful feelings for konoha, for reasons such as sasuke joining madara to destroy konoha or whatever he has planned.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by ponchocam

Your timeline is a little off.

Cant really blame him, we have no real way of gauging the actual number of years intbetween each event.

He's basically giving an educated guess, or keeping the numbers even for accuracy purposes.

[NarutoSamaman]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Its possible that tobi is saying all this so that sasuke might reignite the love he used to feel for his brother, before he killed off the clan.

He could be saying this, to manipulate sasuke into hating konoha....in order for him to bring out those emotions he needs to rekindle the love sasuke once felt for itachi, remember he kept saying"Remember your loving brother" he would then need to come up with a story that wouldnt put itachi in the bad light, but of the ones who ordered him to carry out the assasination mission.

It's possible he wants to destroy the feelings of hate he has towards his brother, and develop new hateful feelings for konoha, for reasons such as sasuke joining madara to destroy konoha or whatever he has planned.

Yes that's fine but only thing is why would Sasuke join Madara considering Madara assisted Itachi in killing of the Uchiha. Even if the leaf did say "kill them" and Madara is trying to build the hate against the leaf- fact that he helped kill off the clan will mean he's a bit of a hypocrite and I don't see why Sasuke would assist Madara. If anything he'd try to kill Madara first and then take down the leaf.

Regarding the Neji's father thing, it may have been a similar situation involving the third- where he may have caved to Danzou's and the adviser's wishes where they used "for the greater good of the village ".

[Azn]

His timeline was off in the sense that he made naruto 15 years old when team 7 was made. makes me think of something from the history channel for some reason.

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Its possible that tobi is saying all this so that sasuke might reignite the love he used to feel for his brother, before he killed off the clan.

He could be saying this, to manipulate sasuke into hating konoha....in order for him to bring out those emotions he needs to rekindle the love sasuke once felt for itachi, remember he kept saying"Remember your loving brother" he would then need to come up with a story that wouldnt put itachi in the bad light, but of the ones who ordered him to carry out the assasination mission.

It's possible he wants to destroy the feelings of hate he has towards his brother, and develop new hateful feelings for konoha, for reasons such as sasuke joining madara to destroy konoha or whatever he has planned.

that would sound cool, but something like that sounds more like from a fanfic than from a manga. I think tobi is telling the truth, but like you said, the confused sasuke may feel hatred for Konoha which will have him join Madara.

[Poncho Sama]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Cant really blame him, we have no real way of gauging the actual number of years intbetween each event.

He's basically giving an educated guess, or keeping the numbers even for accuracy purposes.

Is there an official timeline in the databook?