Naruto Manga chapter 398 discussion.

[Lycobre]

Originally Posted by Gathan

I don't know I had alot of respect for that old guy, but after hearing he gave the order to kill every last man/woman/elder/child in the uchiha clan, but for some reason Sasuke was left alive wtf! I just don't know what to think anymore, I want to believe its all a lie made up by Madara because there can't be any good reason for doing something like that.
It would have been better if Itachi remained the psychotic killer that murders his clan just for kicks at least that made some sense in a sick twisted way.

Your not the only one who prefers Itachi as the guy who killed his whole clan. Just so that he could test his capacity. But i'm gonna reserve my judgement for now. Unitl i get the full story at least.

[MuKen]

We do not yet know if sarutobi gave the order, all madara said is that he knows of it. It could be an order he received from root, with sarutobi only finding out after the fact.

[waqo]

If anything the profile Itachi has as of now, fits perfectly with a root operative.

No or little emotions, check

Destroyed his sense of self, check

Distance himself from his own identity and family, check

Performed missions, at any cost, for the good of the village, check

The only thing that goes against the Root profile is that he did it all for Sasuke, and to be honest there is still underwhelming evidence for that so far.

Before you go branding Sarutobi, the guy who sacrificed his life just to take away an enemy's jutsu, an Uchiha-slaughterer, take a deep breath. Relax. The fact is no one has said that sandaime ordered it, have you considered the possibility he may have found out AFTER the orders were made? I'm not saying that's how it happened but till we know more hold your saru-bashing please!

[Poncho Sama]

Originally Posted by waqo

If anything the profile Itachi has as of now, fits perfectly with a root operative.

No or little emotions, check

Destroyed his sense of self, check

Distance himself from his own identity and family, check

Performed missions, at any cost, for the good of the village, check

The only thing that goes against the Root profile is that he did it all for Sasuke, and to be honest there is still underwhelming evidence for that so far.

Before you go branding Sarutobi, the guy who sacrificed his life just to take away an enemy's jutsu, an Uchiha-slaughterer, take a deep breath. Relax. The fact is no one has said that sandaime ordered it, have you considered the possibility he may have found out AFTER the orders were made? I'm not saying that's how it happened but till we know more hold your saru-bashing please!

Madara said Sarutobi ordered it. It was a four person decision, ergo he has atleast some say.

[waqo]

@ poncho:No, Madara said that 4 people in Konoha knew the truth about Itachi, he never specifically states that Sandaime ordered it

Naruto 398 page 04 | One Manga

[Poncho Sama]

Originally Posted by waqo

@ poncho:No, Madara said that 4 people in Konoha knew the truth about Itachi, he never specifically states that Sandaime ordered it

Naruto 398 page 04 | One Manga

Konoha ordered the mission. All four of them were well aware of the mission. Sandaime obviously had a hand in the decision. Even if he was reluctant he still had to sign on. half of four advisors were his former teammates its not like they would be on the opposite side of most decisions. Not to mention Sarutobi didn't bat an eye when he made the Hyuuga clan give up Neji's father.

[waqo]

Originally Posted by ponchocam

Konoha ordered the mission. All four of them were well aware of the mission. Sandaime obviously had a hand in the decision. Even if he was reluctant he still had to sign on. half of four advisors were his former teammates its not like they would be on the opposite side of most decisions. Not to mention Sarutobi didn't bat an eye when he made the Hyuuga clan give up Neji's father.

Think of Madara's story to Sasuke as a book, his prologue (itachi ordered by konoha, sandaime involved etc) divulges some scattered bits of information that draw sasuke into knowing more.

He then proceeds to start his main body somewhere a long time before the actual events, he will then tie in the main body to the prologue somewhere down the line. Until then this picture is incomplete.

Correction also on him 'making' Hyuuga clan give up Neji's father. The hyuuga policy is a clan policy, they are a well-respected clan and have a system in place to protect their KG, there was little room for negotiation in the deal. Sandaime's hand was forced by circumstance and since the Hyuuga themselves had this clause in place it was the obvious choice in order to avoid all-out war. Plus ultimately Neji's dad volunteered to do it anyway, so its off Sandaime's shoulders.

edit: Remember, sarutobi was willing to give his life for the village, but he expected any other konoha shinobi to do the same, sacrifice is seen as a noble act, mass murder is a completely different issue. Ninja die protecting their village, that's the way of things they hyuuga clan aren't exempt from this rule. If it saves hudreds of lives and the ninja is a willing participant then how can the hokage stop such an act?

[Rollin 20's]

Originally Posted by ponchocam

Konoha ordered the mission. All four of them were well aware of the mission. Sandaime obviously had a hand in the decision. Even if he was reluctant he still had to sign on. half of four advisors were his former teammates its not like they would be on the opposite side of most decisions. Not to mention Sarutobi didn't bat an eye when he made the Hyuuga clan give up Neji's father.

who ever said he 'made' them give up nejis dad? he voluntered to die (idk how to spell it gtfo my back)

edit: waldo your right but he sacrificed himself in his brothers place as a way to 'free' himself

[Valdo]

technically Nejis dad had a duty to protect his older bro and decided that the only way was to sacrifice himself in his brothers place. Noone made him.

Think of Madara's story to Sasuke as a book, his prologue (itachi ordered by konoha, sandaime involved etc) divulges some scattered bits of information that draw sasuke into knowing more.

He then proceeds to start his main body somewhere a long time before the actual events, he will then tie in the main body to the prologue somewhere down the line. Until then this picture is incomplete.

yeah i agree. He is given bits of info out and we are assuming stuff that we dont know. We have to wait until we get al the facts straight.

[Lycobre]

Originally Posted by WaldoJC

technically Nejis dad had a duty to protect his older bro and decided that the only way was to sacrifice himself in his brothers place. Noone made him.

It was more like he wanted to escape from the clutches, of his cursed existence. So deth was the next best thing imo.

[Valdo]

^ yeah but dont u think that he still had a duty as a lower branch as well??. He grew up knowing this as much as he hated it but i guess that death was also a solution to his suffering.

[Poncho Sama]

Originally Posted by waqo

Think of Madara's story to Sasuke as a book, his prologue (itachi ordered by konoha, sandaime involved etc) divulges some scattered bits of information that draw sasuke into knowing more.

He then proceeds to start his main body somewhere a long time before the actual events, he will then tie in the main body to the prologue somewhere down the line. Until then this picture is incomplete.

Correction also on him 'making' Hyuuga clan give up Neji's father. The hyuuga policy is a clan policy, they are a well-respected clan and have a system in place to protect their KG, there was little room for negotiation in the deal. Sandaime's hand was forced by circumstance and since the Hyuuga themselves had this clause in place it was the obvious choice in order to avoid all-out war. Plus ultimately Neji's dad volunteered to do it anyway, so its off Sandaime's shoulders.

edit: Remember, sarutobi was willing to give his life for the village, but he expected any other konoha shinobi to do the same, sacrifice is seen as a noble act, mass murder is a completely different issue. Ninja die protecting their village, that's the way of things they hyuuga clan aren't exempt from this rule. If it saves hudreds of lives and the ninja is a willing participant then how can the hokage stop such an act?

You still haven't shown me that Sarutobi as of now wasn't part of the order. How is the Hokage not going to be in charge of missions. All four of them according to Madara got together. If he had as much pull as you claim and was such a good guy he should have called it off. Sasrutobi isn't this benevolent old man. He's a trained killer. If he felt it was necessary to kill the clan I have no doubt he would have. Just like he told the Hyuuga to give up Hinata's dad because Lightening country was threatening Konoha because of what happen that night. Neji's dad just served as a replacement but Sarutobi still had to demand a body. The reason Neji's dad was used was to protect the Byakugan.

[Rollin 20's]

Originally Posted by ponchocam

You still haven't shown me that Sarutobi as of now wasn't part of the order. How is the Hokage not going to be in charge of missions. All four of them according to Madara got together. If he had as much pull as you claim and was such a good guy he should have called it off. Sasrutobi isn't this benevolent old man. He's a trained killer. If he felt it was necessary to kill the clan I have no doubt he would have. Just like he told the Hyuuga to give up Hinata's dad because Lightening country was threatening Konoha because of what happen that night. Neji's dad just served as a replacement but Sarutobi still had to demand a body. The reason Neji's dad was used was to protect the Byakugan.

i dont recall them 'forcing' hinata's dad to give up his life because of the thread, it was his duty to save the secrets of his clan but your right in a way i guess

[Poncho Sama]

Originally Posted by slikens

i dont recall them 'forcing' hinata's dad to give up his life because of the thread, it was his duty to save the secrets of his clan but your right in a way i guess

Do you even remember why Hinata's dad was about to die. Neji didn't hate Hinata just because he thought she was useless.

[Valdo]

You still haven't shown me that Sarutobi as of now wasn't part of the order. How is the Hokage not going to be in charge of missions. All four of them according to Madara got together. If he had as much pull as you claim and was such a good guy he should have called it off. Sasrutobi isn't this benevolent old man. He's a trained killer. If he felt it was necessary to kill the clan I have no doubt he would have.

I think that sarutobi had to do what he did. He is a GOOD GUY just he had to do what he thought was best. He is the hokage and his job is to look out for the villages best interest even if it goes against wat he thinks. He had no other choice. well at least i dont think he had a choice.:

[Rollin 20's]

Originally Posted by ponchocam

Do you even remember why Hinata's dad was about to die. Neji didn't hate Hinata just because he thought she was useless.

i never said that, meh you obviously dont understand this i wont try to explain it ^_^ why are we takling about the hyuuga clan anyways? lol

[waqo]

Originally Posted by ponchocam

You still haven't shown me that Sarutobi as of now wasn't part of the order. How is the Hokage not going to be in charge of missions.

I don't have to show you that sarutobi wasn't part of the order, i am just saying there isn't enough information to say that he was, you managed to deduce a whole lot from one line.

According to madara all four of them got together

Err please show me where he says that. He says they knew about it, when and how they came to know he never stated.

sarutobi isn't this benevolent old man

Till proven otherwise he is.

[Poncho Sama]

Originally Posted by waqo

I don't have to show you that sarutobi wasn't part of the order, i am just saying there isn't enough information to say that he was, you managed to deduce a whole lot from one line.



Err please show me where he says that. He says they knew about it, when and how they came to know he never stated.



Till proven otherwise he is.

Till proven otherwise? Sure he was loved by Konoha but I would not call him a pacifist. He's not Danzou but he's not a push over. There is no reason to think Sarutobi wouldn't kill off someone if they threaten konoha.

[The stig]

Ok, after reading through the posts.

I don't think this mission would of happened if the 3rd said no.

The 3rd had to have some say in the matter, otherwise, it would of been going against the orders of the "puppet master", which is never allowed.

The 3rd was the hokage, danzou was in charge of root, the elders were just elders, they didn't really have orders to throw around, just more like advisors as we've seen, their "orders" don't get followed through and even changed.

So, the 3rd must of given the "go ahead" 'nod'.

[waqo]

Originally Posted by ponchocam

Till proven otherwise? Sure he was loved by Konoha but I would not call him a pacifist. He's not Danzou but he's not a push over. There is no reason to think Sarutobi wouldn't kill off someone if they threaten konoha.

Yes, but that's just the thing, ordering the whole uchiha clan, including kids and non-sharigan users etc. that's not protecting konoha, its destroying a major part of it. plus if he did order it, i'm sure he would order every last one to be killed (no exceptions, not even sasuke)

We have seen that the hokage wanted peace, just because you are a soldier doesn't mean you have to fight all the time. you only fight when you have to, that makes you no less of a pacifist.

You cannot say itachi requested it etc then because surely killing even the kids and non-shinobi uchiha would mean that they were potentially dangerous to the village. nothing about sasuke was any different.

Ok, after reading through the posts.

I don't think this mission would of happened if the 3rd said no.

The 3rd had to have some say in the matter, otherwise, it would of been going against the orders of the "puppet master", which is never allowed.

The 3rd was the hokage, danzou was in charge of root, the elders were just elders, they didn't really have orders to throw around, just more like advisors as we've seen, their "orders" don't get followed through and even changed.

So, the 3rd must of given the "go ahead" 'nod'.

the elders are 'just' elders? they decide who becomes hokage, many hokages came and went but they remained the advisors, we have seen tsunade reluctantly agree to their DEMANDS. plus danzou has already shown that he can give orders that are beyond the hokage's knowledge (sai to kill sasuke) so why not in itachi's case!?