Naruto Manga chapter 398 discussion.

[MuKen]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Since apparently that clan along with the senju clan helped form konoha.
A clan not even mentioned during konohas formation supposedly the oldest clan of that village?

Granted, it would require some explanation, but I don't think it's fair to call it contradictory unless something ruled out all plausible explanations. As long as there are one or more ways to reasonably reconcile everything we know, it's not really a contradiction.

For example, perhaps the Hyuuga were an ancient clan. At some point, one of them developed a mutation leading to the Sharingan. He and his offspring then branched away from the Hyuuga, becoming the Uchihas. Eventually, a period of war arose, and the Uchihas began to sell themselves as mercenaries. The Hyuuga, comfortable in their own territory somewhere outside of the conflict, chose to stay out of it. The Uchihas along with the Senju clan rose to the top of the conflict, and decided to ally themselves rather than constantly face losses from being hired by conflicting sides and thus having to fight each other. Some time after they formed Konoha, some of the Uchihas remembering their parent clan invited them to join.

Thus, the Hyuuga would be the "oldest clan" in Konoha, but that doesn't mean they were in Konoha the longest.

This is one of many ways we could explain everything we've been told, so I don't think anything is contradictory.

[l0rdza0n]

Originally Posted by Quagz

the first must have been a monster.

since this is the only thing we have right now showing a glimpse of what shodai might've been.. i re-share teh vid



Shodai's sick.. sick! just a glimpse of what might've been!!

[hmph]

so listen heres my theory, sasuke will stay a missin nin and Naruto will become kage...at that time sasuke will attack Konoha and will be an all out war, Naruto defending his country that he loves and sasuke trying to destroy it becuz he hates hit so..lol light and dark will Naruto vs Sasuke the next great war

[waqo]

You know Kishi is not known for contradiction, he is known though for totally messing with us and leaving us in the lurch. Kishi is toying with us and showing us a carrot on a stick and we're running behind it like unwitting little rabbits. I am just trying to maintain my sanity by constantly telling myself that Madara is lying, about certain things anyway.

I have evidence too, Madara makes it very clear to Sasuke he will not hear this from anyone else. Why would he say that? He absolutely insists that the elders and danzou will not divulge this information to him. If he was so sincere he would say to sasuke that there are others who know of this and although they may be reluctant you can find out from them as well.

Second, when sasuke agrees to listen to madara he lets out a little sign of being pleased with himself a "heh..." as if to say that's it sasuke the bait is now there you are going to fall for my words.

This guy has the experience of manipulating a whole clan, some of the most vicious people in the manga yet and leading them. Imagine his trickery with words, he is able to be convincing and able to divulge information that may at large be true but spun in such a way that it suits his purpose.

The hyuuga are not important to madara so he doens't include them, his story revolves around showing that the uchiha were dealt the short straw by konoha time and time again, this is the way to making sasuke hate the hokages, konoha, everyone he would so gladly rejoin now that his revenge is complete, instead now he shall channel all that hatred that reached its peak ("the machine has ripened" he said referring to sauske) he will be compelled to join madara for the restoration of the 'mistreated' uchiha clan.

[Shinobi-kun]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

It still doesnt account for the fact that the uchiha clan should technically be the oldest clan of konoha, from what kishimoto is giving me.

Since apparently that clan along with the senju clan helped form konoha.
A clan not even mentioned during konohas formation supposedly the oldest clan of that village?...and the uchihas... the ones mentioned as the co-founders arent? That does not compute.

It doesnt matter if they were around hundreds of years before konoha is formed.
Kakashi specifically said they were the oldest clan of the village, they had to of been there during the founding. Yet the only clans ive heard of as the founders of konoha are the uchihas and the senju's.

It's contradictory to the story until kishimoto can work the hyugas into it.

this could just be one of those plotholes that kishi didnt expect anyone to notice.......kinda like how naruto's failed the ninja academy multiple times yet he's the same age as the rest of the rookie 9 (except for neji, lee, and tenten; yet naruto's younger than them).

[naffizi]

well kishi is human....and i think he is no logistian....and he probably won't expect us to get in to the maths....but yeah...he really dun fucked up on his time line and power levels...anyways lets enjoy the story...he tells one heck of a story got to give him that

[waqo]

Originally Posted by Shinobi-kun

this could just be one of those plotholes that kishi didnt expect anyone to notice.......kinda like how naruto's failed the ninja academy multiple times yet he's the same age as the rest of the rookie 9 (except for neji, lee, and tenten; yet naruto's younger than them).

That's not really a plot hole at all, we don't know if the academy graduation exam is an annual test or a more frequent one, it is possible that they are tested and retested till the end of the academic year in order to give those who are not able to perform well a chance to recover without losing a whole year (this commonly happens in real UK exams where a lot of examination boards conduct 2 sessions of exams (one at the end of the academic year and one just before or after christmas to allow students to pass modules or bump up their grades without having to redo the entire syllabus)

I dont think we can really point out a galring plothole in kishi's story so far, imo he goes to great lengths to keep things explained, (the explanations may not always satisfy everyone but they fall within the realm of possibilities nonetheless!)

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by MuKen

Granted, it would require some explanation, but I don't think it's fair to call it contradictory unless something ruled out all plausible explanations. As long as there are one or more ways to reasonably reconcile everything we know, it's not really a contradiction.

No its a contradiction until kishimoto tells me otherwhise, and any speculation on my or your part will not negate that.

Originally Posted by Muken

For example, perhaps the Hyuuga were an ancient clan. At some point, one of them developed a mutation leading to the Sharingan. He and his offspring then branched away from the Hyuuga, becoming the Uchihas.

And yet no mention of them.

Originally Posted by Muken

Eventually, a period of war arose, and the Uchihas began to sell themselves as mercenaries. The Hyuuga, comfortable in their own territory somewhere outside of the conflict, chose to stay out of it.

Yes i have already proposed they could be isolationists, but for such an old and reknowned clan that is according to kakashi the oldest of konoha, their absence in madaras explanations of konohas beginings(this is not the first, this is only the first elaborated on further) is still very suspect, which doesnt really add much to the idea that they hold seniority over the only two clans mentioned to of had anything to do with the formation of konoha.

Originally Posted by Muken

The Uchihas along with the Senju clan rose to the top of the conflict, and decided to ally themselves rather than constantly face losses from being hired by conflicting sides and thus having to fight each other. Some time after they formed Konoha, some of the Uchihas remembering their parent clan invited them to join.

That's if kishimoto is not contradicting himself, which he has done in the past.
if so, ill have nothing to complain about(im not neccisarily complaining at the moment, simply stating that to me its a pretty clear contradiction or it atleast appears to be.

if the next chapter fills in the gap then i will rescind my statements.

Originally Posted by Muken

Thus, the Hyuuga would be the "oldest clan" in Konoha, but that doesn't mean they were in Konoha the longest.

This is one of many ways we could explain everything we've been told, so I don't think anything is contradictory.

Possibly, but the reason i object is becuase the same label could be placed on the uchihas.
They technically were the oldest clan in konoha,(assuming the senju clan hold no more political power, and died out) becuase they founded it along with senju, if the hyugas were invited to join then only by lineage are they the oldest.

I love naruto, dont take this as me going off in it just becuase of a plot development like some fans might*coughTonyCough* im just frustrated, becuase such a big peice if information has been placed at my doorstep yet it doesnt inform me, it confuses me even further...while at the same time planting a subtle seed of understanding, becuase a few things are now more clear.

I know now that shinobi clans were originally clans of warring people who sold their abilities to countries...kishimoto never really elaborated on what these shinobi people were doing cutoff from the rest of the world, before i always questioned(were they part of a country, or cutoff what??E?E?) im guessing after the war shodaime ended each country adopted a hidden village which was the shinobi base camp, and the military might of the land.

[Fabre]

*Sigh* No Hyuugas in the flashback?
Kishi has just forgotten everyone else this whole time-skip except Team 7.


At least Kubo actually gives his other characters plot development.

[SHADENINJA]

Fuckin sweet chapter

finally we can put the shady parts of the konoha's history to rest

[Evil Sannin]

well it looks like Himajin's spoiler of the chapter was wrong...anyways i don't think Madara is pulling Sasuke's leg about the entire situation. We're gonna hear it all from the man that's been there since the beginning. And yes Senju Hashirama must have been something close to a God. I mean hell you got Madara admiring him...and Madara has the "perfect" Mangekyou as well so he has to be crazy sick, just wonder how he died now. I'm glad we're getting some info about the past...although we had to go even deeper from Itachi's flashback to the beginning of Konoha so however this ties into Itachi killing his entire plan i'm ready for it.

[MuKen]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

im just frustrated, becuase such a big peice if information has been placed at my doorstep yet it doesnt inform me, it confuses me even further...

Well I certainly share your frustration, I don't think writing a chapter which tells us nothing and adds more questions after having made us wait two weeks, with now another 2 week wait ahead of us is good storytelling.

However, I just don't agree that there is a contradiction here...

Possibly, but the reason i object is becuase the same label could be placed on the uchihas. They technically were the oldest clan in konoha,(assuming the senju clan hold no more political power, and died out) becuase they founded it along with senju, if the hyugas were invited to join then only by lineage are they the oldest.

Yes, there are two ways you can interpret the phrase "oldest clan", and Hyuuga could satisfy one, and Uchihas/Senju would satisfy the other. I don't see how this makes for a contradiction, you don't always take the least workable definition and accuse authors of contradicting themselves; you by default take the definition which is most workable.

If we did things that way, then any time anybody used a word that has more than one definition, you could accuse them of nonsensical speech by picking the definition which doesn't make sense.

[Naima]

Interesting.... Orders of Konoha..... They may found out about Uchiha's true purpose, so they ordered to smash uchiha clan.

But it doesn't answer my universe question...

[buckzXL]

Did anybody notice the Kyuubi has the Sharingan?

It's on the title page

http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/000...9628/01-02.jpg

[littlee]

haha my favorite part was definitely madara slapping sasuke saying "get a hold of yourself!!!"

i added the exclamation points for emphasis. just picture it. haha get what im saying
no? ok, sorry. in my mind..

anyway. havent been reading the discussion..no time. but if theres people still saying madaras lying or whatever, well right now i dont really think so, i think hes telling the truth and all. who knows though.
im enjoying these chapters
poor angsty bastard disturbed uchiha children..i love em.


p.s i <3 foreshadowing
goodnight you crazy kids

[duhduhduh]

Originally Posted by Lord_Sasori

We have no idea how the first died. For all we know it could of simply been due to old age. And I dont know if I would call Uchihas the peace keepers. I mean they sound like a pretty damn bloody violent clan. Im not too sure but oh well

We do know how the first died. Tsunade mentioned that the first and second hokage sacrificed their lives in the war to protect konoha while trying to turn down the hokage position.

[JDPIMP2004]

I don't see how will Sasuke hate konoha....after all it was the 3rd, Danzou, and the 2 advisor fault that Itachi mass murdered the clan. He can't blame Konoha in general. After all they have their reason to stop the Uchiha clan for sake of the village. Sasuke should blame Madara in the first place but since Madara is being Mr.nice it might no happen.

After this Sasuke might end up with no purpose in life...

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by MuKen

Well I certainly share your frustration, I don't think writing a chapter which tells us nothing and adds more questions after having made us wait two weeks, with now another 2 week wait ahead of us is good storytelling.

However, I just don't agree that there is a contradiction here...

If we dont learn anything about the hyuga's it pretty much will be.

Originally Posted by Muken

Yes, there are two ways you can interpret the phrase "oldest clan", and Hyuuga could satisfy one, and Uchihas/Senju would satisfy the other. I don't see how this makes for a contradiction, you don't always take the least workable definition and accuse authors of contradicting themselves; you by default take the definition which is most workable.

I'm not saying its a contradiction in the sense that kishimoto fouled up and he would need to release some sort of statement or somthing, simply the lack of hyuga involvment in the forming of the hidden leaf village pretty much conflicts with all the data we have been given about the hyugas being a integral part in the origins of konoha. If they were such big piece of konoha, kishimoto doesnt seem to be living up to his past statements...becuase they are at the moment non existant in the founding of konoha.

So im waiting to see what he says about the hyugas.

[Milanista23]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

What i want to know is, how could itachi just accept such an order?
Did he actually hate his clan? Or was he the type of shinobi that danzou trains, ones who accept the mission over freinds and family, and personal feelings are thrown out the window(accept maybe for his brother) if thats true, i still dont think of itachi as a Moral human being.

I would say that Itachi was ordered to kill the whole Uchiha because Uchiha were becoming a danger for the village. People misused the power of the Sharingan to do evil things (including birnging out the Kuubi). Or their was a major plan going on in the back to do something similar again, and Konoha had to stop all this!

Maybe the trade was that he could keep Sasuke only if he accepts to do this, but if someone else would do it then Sasuke would not be saved either.

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Now i want to know why itachi gained the MS in the first place, was it to try and keep madara in check?

I'm not sure, but could it be that this was part of the order? I mean gaining the MS to be able to complete the mission successfully and then to use it on Sasuke to build up his hatred!

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Milanista23

I'm not sure, but could it be that this was part of the order? I mean gaining the MS to be able to complete the mission successfully and then to use it on Sasuke to build up his hatred!

Why does the third hokage want sasuke to build up his hatred?

That just makes me think even less of sarutobi.