Senjutsu users immune from genjutsu?

[ifeanyi84]

Originally Posted by DemiGod.PBm

So then what would the attacker be controlling if the original chakra has changed into something completely different?

the genjutsu caster would simply be controlling the new nature energy enhanced chakra. it's not like a senjutsu user is gonna be able to use two different kinds of chakra at once. when naruto starts gathering nature energy, he would have no choice other than to mold it into all of the chakra he makes. if he doesnt keep the nature energy balance with the spiritual and physical, he'll turn into a frog.

Originally Posted by DemiGod.PBm

How does your post contribute to the debate?

Since Shodai Hokage seemed to do just fine, against possibly the greatest genjutsu user... I think it's fair to assume that there's an exception to every rule.

just because because shodai defeated madara doesnt mean he was immune to genjutsu. there could be any number of reasons why he won that fight.

[nozferah2]

Originally Posted by SHADENINJA

I disagree

Senjutsu would not prevent the use of genjutsu on a person. Genjutsu occurs when a person controls the FLOW of chakra of the other person. Jinchuuriki have two seperate chakras within them, whcih is why with control, they are apparently able to dispell genjutsu.

Senjutsu does not use two seperate flows of chakra. It simply requires a new kind of chakra, created by mixing natural energy and normal chakra. There isn't more than one flow of chakra, it's just a new kind of chakra.

I can deal with that. But try this.

Naruto falls under Itachi's GJ. Sakura charges Naruto with her own Chakra to counter-act the GJ.

Can't that be the same as using ..oh say.. a tree or a rocks chakra instead of a human to counter the flow?

[ifeanyi84]

senjutsu does not use nature chakra. it uses nature energy. while it hasnt been stated conclusively, i'm willing to bet that rocks and trees dont have chakra since they cant mold the energies needed to create chakra.

and even if that wasnt the case, the rock would need to be able to recognize that naruto was under genjutsu and "charge" naruto with it's chakra (which it doesnt have). that's not gonna happen.

[cmanatjc34]

anyone think that naruto will learn how to transform into the ninetails like killer bee did with the eight? and if he does would he use it?

[nozferah2]

Originally Posted by ifeanyi84

senjutsu does not use nature chakra. it uses nature energy. while it hasnt been stated conclusively, i'm willing to bet that rocks and trees dont have chakra since they cant mold the energies needed to create chakra.

and even if that wasnt the case, the rock would need to be able to recognize that naruto was under genjutsu and "charge" naruto with it's chakra (which it doesnt have). that's not gonna happen.

no no, thats not what im saying..

1st of all, I'm not so convinced that 'energy' isn't just another name for chakra, since it all has so many names.. chi, ki, energy, chakra, ect are basically the same... energy in naruto so far, has been called chakra.

And the rock would not have to realize the genjutsu.. Naruto knew himself he was under Itachi's GJ. He wouldnt have to "ask" nature for it's energy, he'd take it.

And Like I said earlier, Senju beat Madara's EMS. I doubt he did it by no looking into Madara's eyes... thats silly. There is a way for a shinobi to counter the Sharingan, and Senjutsu is the best answer I've heard yet

[ifeanyi84]

you should be convinced that energy is not the same as chakra because it is clearly stated (if you even bother to read the information in the manga) that different types of energy are put together and molded to make chakra. i even posted scans of the specific pages earlier in the thread.

if naruto is already under genjutsu, it would mean that his chakra is being controlled by somebody else. i could be proven wrong about this later on in the manga, but i doubt that he would be able to perform a task like gathering nature energy and than molding it into chakra properly enough to not turn into a frog, all while his chakra is being controlled and he's being attacked.

other than the fact that shodaime won, we know nothing about the battle that he and madara had. i dont see how that fight is even relevant. there is nothing to suggest that shodaime knew senjutsu, while there is actually information that suggests that he probably didnt know it.

[erosennin6996]

Originally Posted by nozferah2

no no, thats not what im saying..

1st of all, I'm not so convinced that 'energy' isn't just another name for chakra, since it all has so many names.. chi, ki, energy, chakra, ect are basically the same... energy in naruto so far, has been called chakra.

And the rock would not have to realize the genjutsu.. Naruto knew himself he was under Itachi's GJ. He wouldnt have to "ask" nature for it's energy, he'd take it.

And Like I said earlier, Senju beat Madara's EMS. I doubt he did it by no looking into Madara's eyes... thats silly. There is a way for a shinobi to counter the Sharingan, and Senjutsu is the best answer I've heard yet

I think you're right on this one. We know for a fact that the simple introduction of natural energy changes the internal chakra balance right then and there. If Naruto absorbs natural energy he must balance it with his internal energy and stamina. If he doesn't do that he starts turning into a toad. Who knows what that does to his system? It's probably painful and pain is one thing we know can break lower level Genjutsu. Charging a person with chakra breaks even high level Genjutsu.

Absorbing natural energy has to alter the balance of energy that makes up chakra in a person. And as we now know it is like having a unlimited supply of chakra. And I quote, "Ninja techniques exhaust you, the more you use them, since you're using your own chakra. But Sage techniques take in the natural energy from outside, so rather than becoming exhausted, you actually recover more quickly." Sounds to me like Naruto now has an unlimited supply of chakra to draw on that only he can sense.

Killer Bee says very clearly, "In order to break the illusion, I need a partner who can disturb my chakra and snap me out of it." Simply absorbing natural energy automatically has to "disturb" Naruto's chakra. He may now be resistant to all forms of Genjutsu that don't use natural energy or aren't ultimate jutsu like the sword of Totsuka, which is best to avoid getting stabbed with anyway. And unless he fights a toad, I don't think he's going to run into any shinobi who can use Sage Genjutsu.

Also anyone else think that the way Naruto's eyes are being drawn is a foreshadowing that he's going to gain a new way of looking at things. His ability to see natural energy might even work like his very own counter to the sharingan.

[ifeanyi84]

that's actually a great point that i never actually thought about, and is a much better idea than the natural chakra source that dude kept saying. i tried to rep you for it, but apparently i cant rep you right now. as long as he is able to absorb any natural energy at all while under genjutsu, that should be enough to either disrupt the balance of his chakra or at least start turning him into a frog, which should take him out of his genjutsu.

[erosennin6996]

Originally Posted by ifeanyi84

that's actually a great point that i never actually thought about, and is a much better idea than the natural chakra source that dude kept saying. i tried to rep you for it, but apparently i cant rep you right now. as long as he is able to absorb any natural energy at all while under genjutsu, that should be enough to either disrupt the balance of his chakra or at least start turning him into a frog, which should take him out of his genjutsu.

Thx anyway. You were making a good case to the contrary. But something was nagging me so I went back and read what Killer Bee said right after that fantastic clothesline on Sasugay. And I'd just read what Fukasaku had told Naruto and it clicked.

[nozferah2]

Thx Erosennin, more or less what I was trying to say to whats his face.

Sage Chakra requires your own stamina and two different energy sources. Calling it chakra or energy makes no difference, its the same shit.

And I dont really know how someone can say
"there is nothing to suggest that shodaime knew senjutsu,"
when Shodaime's name is Hashirama SENJU. DURR.... And lets assume that Madara doesnt know any Genjutsu.

[ifeanyi84]

Originally Posted by nozferah2

Sage Chakra requires your own stamina and two different energy sources. Calling it chakra or energy makes no difference, its the same shit.

it actually does make a difference when the source of all our information presents energy and chakra as two separate concepts. when you're wrong about something, just drop it and stop arguing about it. there's no shame in being wrong. erosennin showed me an error in my logic, and admitted to it with no problem.

Originally Posted by nozferah2

And I dont really know how someone can say
"there is nothing to suggest that shodaime knew senjutsu,"

just because the words senju and senjutsu sound similar in english doesnt necessarily mean that they are actually related to each other when the author uses them in japanese. from what i've heard about the language, the words actually have nothing to do with each other, and unless that information is completely wrong then that explains exactly how i can say that. apparently "sen" is one word and "jutsu" is another. supposedly "senju" is one word, and if so, then senju and senjutsu are two apparently unrelated words. also, fukusaku was talking as though naruto and jiraiya are the only ones to have been taught senjutsu. if that is true, then shodaime most likely didnt use senjutsu against madara.

and like i said, we know nothing about the fight that they had. it's very much within the realm of possibility that something other than genjutsu was the deciding factor in the fight. it could quite possibly have come down to shodaime's control of bijuu. either way, that fight isnt relevant.

[nozferah2]

It's not just the name Senju. That's only what brings the attention.

It's the fact that he Senju were better than the hax clan Uchiha. The fact that Hashirama KG is SOO much more brutal than Yamato's when they have the same DNA.. the difference lies not in blood difference but Jutsu knowledge difference.
The fact that Madara could put Bijuu under his control as well, makes Hashirama's Bijuu control almost worthless against Madara.. it was a 1v1 duke.. a hax EMS Genjutsu was beaten in a 1v1.. the only way to beat Genjutsu is chakra control... external ie: Chiyo helps Naruto, or other external means, or internal ie: jinchuriki w/ obedient bijuu.

I think that fight is very relevant. EMS is supposed to be unbeatable! I dont think Senjutsu is xclusive only to frogs... but this whole post is not to arugue, just to hint/speculate, theres more evidence than not the Senju Clan were formidable against the Uchiha.

[erosennin6996]

It's really to early to tell whether the Senju in the Senju Clan and the Senju in Senjutsu has anything to do with one another. Case in point: [ANBU] is supposedly the acronym for Ansatsu Senjutsu Tokushu Butai. Senjutsu in this sense means Tactics, which is what I origianlly thought they meant when it was said Naruto would learn Senjutsu.

You have to look at the original Japanese letters to know if they have anything to do with one another. Two completely different Japanese words can come out looking identical after they been romanized depending on method of romanization.

However, I can't help but having the same hunch that Senju was such a powerful clan because they could use natural energy. It would certainly explain their rivalry with Uchiha. The mokuton doesn't explain it since no other member of the First's clan could use the mokuton.

That's also a good point about why Yamoto is such a pussy while the man he was cloned from was such a beast.

Still It's all speculation at this point; I don't see any good evidence one way or the other. Lt's just wait an see on this one.

[Soph_dre]

Originally Posted by nozferah2

The fact that Madara could put Bijuu under his control as well, makes Hashirama's Bijuu control almost worthless against Madara.. it was a 1v1 duke.. a hax EMS Genjutsu was beaten in a 1v1...

Since when could Madara employ the power of Biju in general, or do you mean the 9-Tailed Fox by itself. I don't remember the sharingan being able to control any biju outside of Nine Tails. If the sharingan could do that, the fight with Hachibi should have been way different.

On topic, I made a few posts last page agreeing with high GJ resistance/ immunity lol. It is definitly explained that the flow of natural chakra can be controlled inside and outside of the body. The only question I had was whether the GJ victim retained the ability control natural energy in a GJ world where nothing is natural and nothing is tangible, but I guess I answered myself my own question.

[kits]

Dudes, none of this really matters. If Naruto uses the senjutsu like Jirayia did he will have the little frog people sitting on his shoulders. If Madara or Sasuke tries to get cute and use genjutsu, the little old frog man will just bop Naruto on the head with his froggy stick to snap him out of it. Mission accomplished.

[bluelion7342]

well since senjutsu doesnt use chakra only natures energy aroudn the user then while in that mode the user would not be affected. However the momenty he goes right into that mode he will be affected, but naruto has shown to break free of genjutsu. Itachis stuff was on another level and i dont think we will see a ninja close to the stuff itachi could do. so im pretty sure naruto can break genjutsu. unless kishimoto has more god techniques for sasuke.

and i would not confuse natural energy as just another name for chakra. Chakra comes internally from the user, natural energy at least for senjutsu is external. your body internally creates its chakra, but it cannot externally create chakra, only maniupalte the energy. i just dont see how naruto is gonna be affected by genjutsu.

at this point narutos powerup's although a lot more subtle than sasukes are actually puttin him over the edge against sasuke in just about every way.