Senjutsu users immune from genjutsu?

[DemiGod.PBm]

Dunno if someone has said this before, but in light of what Kirabi said about jinchuuriki using their biju to nullify genjutsu, it became apparent that Naruto would eventually be able to do the same.

However, since Naruto to trying to avoid using Kyuubi's chakra and his opponent will at some stage be a master of genjutsu (who can suppress Kyuubi), he needs another ally or means of dispelling genjutsu.

As is the case with using bijuu chakra, senjutsu gives the user a foreign source of chakra, which is one of the requirements for breaking genjutsu.

There's no evidence to support this theory, although it makes sense of Itachi's claim that fight between he and Jiraiya would result in a draw.

Any thoughts on this?

[Phan-Buoy]

It makes sense but whats bothering me is that it wasn't hachibi that snapped himself out of the genjutsu it was the 8-Tails,and it also has a certain degree of control over it's own chakra as opposed to senjutsu where your in control of both natural and your own so theres no one snap you out of it.

[EyesOfABeast]

As is the case with using bijuu chakra, senjutsu gives the user a foreign source of chakra, which is one of the requirements for breaking genjutsu.

Well the user himelf has to gather the chakra, but if you are not concious, you can'T do that. So I doubt Senjutsu is any help against genjutsu.

[nozferah2]

LMAO "Kirabi" = Killa bee?? . . .

anywayz... there is no way to know. Senjutsu is controlled with but ONE consciousness...unless one could argue nature itself is mildly sentient, enough to dispell genjutsu.

Since the 1st did somehow manage to beat the EMS... we'll know soon enough

[The stig]

No one is immune to genjutsu.

Not even itachi was immune to it.

So senjutsu doesn't mean you're immune to it.

As for the 8tails, completely different.

It was the disruption of the chakra by even greater chakra of a bijuu that broke the 8tails out of it.

Senjutsu is the chakra that surrounds you, not that's inside you, like a bijuu, once you're the host.

To use senjutsu, you have to draw it in from around you, so it's possible that you could break genjutsu with it, but then again, we don't know enough to say.

[DemiGod.PBm]

The technique that Jiraiya taught Naruto for dispelling genjutsu should prove that the receiving party can still perform seals. Also Shikamaru managed to move enough to use shadow bind to break his own finger and dispel genjutsu.

So there is some level of awareness, that would allow a senjutsu user to draw in natural energy and disrupt their normal chakra

[EyesOfABeast]

but as you explained with Shikamaru's example, for that way of dispelling genjutsu senjutsu is not needed.

This thread is about being immune to genjutsu and that's clearly a no because the user has to do it himself

[DemiGod.PBm]

Originally Posted by EyesOfABeast

but as you explained with Shikamaru's example, for that way of dispelling genjutsu senjutsu is not needed.

This thread is about being immune to genjutsu and that's clearly a no because the user has to do it himself

The point I was making with Shikamaru was referring to your statement about the victim being unconscious, which isn't true. Besides, I also mentioned Naruto's jutsu for dispelling normal genjutsu. For an MS genjutsu, I believe he'd need a considerable amount of chakra to break free.

How is a senjutsu user drawing in natural energy to dispel genjutsu any different from a jinchuuriki using his/her bijuu?

[EyesOfABeast]

How is a senjutsu user drawing in natural energy to dispel genjutsu any different from a jinchuuriki using his/her bijuu?

In that case it is the bijuu streaming (?) it's chakra into. bijuu habe an own will and an own consciousness.

That is not stated anywhere but that's how I would see it.

[SHADENINJA]

I disagree

Senjutsu would not prevent the use of genjutsu on a person. Genjutsu occurs when a person controls the FLOW of chakra of the other person. Jinchuuriki have two seperate chakras within them, whcih is why with control, they are apparently able to dispell genjutsu.

Senjutsu does not use two seperate flows of chakra. It simply requires a new kind of chakra, created by mixing natural energy and normal chakra. There isn't more than one flow of chakra, it's just a new kind of chakra.

[DemiGod.PBm]

In my opinion frog oil induced natural chakra does the same thing as Kyuubi chakra, which leads me to believe that they work in a similar fashion.

Originally Posted by EyesOfABeast

In that case it is the bijuu streaming (?) it's chakra into. bijuu habe an own will and an own consciousness.

That is not stated anywhere but that's how I would see it.

Why do you think that the disruptive chakra has to come from a source that has its own consciousness? Kirabi said his method was the result of having control over his bijuu, which suggests that HE ordered Hachibi to interfere with his normal chakra. No different from senjutsu, right?

@ The stig: When Chiyo and Sakura injected chakra into Naruto to free him from Itachi's genjutsu, was that not from an external source?

@ SHADENINJA: Doesn't a new kind of chakra imply that it is a separate flow of chakra? Naruto's Kyuubi transformations are the result of mixing Kyuubi chakra and normal chakra, again, no different than senjutsu.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by The stig

As for the 8tails, completely different.

It was the disruption of the chakra by even greater chakra of a bijuu that broke the 8tails out of it.

Correction, the magnitude of chakra, or the quality of chakra has nothing to do with it.
Simply another chakra source, outside of a certian individuals chakra is needed to disrupty or counteract the invading chakra, if said individual is incapable of dispelling it himself(which is generally the case with sharingan genjutsu) the power level of the chakra has nothing to do with it.

The reason why what killerbee did is specific only to jinchuriki's, is becuase only hosts of bijuu's have foreign chakra that could be applied in that way, inside of them to the point where they dont need anyone else snapping them out of the genjutsu.

Normal shinobi would either have to use senjutsu(which the majority of all shinobi cannot) or have a freind help them like with naruto in itachis genjutsu.

[Gathan]

I would be inclined to believe that it would allow the dispelling of a genjutsu, cause one would be using a external source of energy to disrupt their own chakra flow.
Which is what the eight tails did only with a internal separate source of energy, or as DemiGod.PBm said with Chiyo and Sakura which was again another external one.

[ifeanyi84]

Originally Posted by DemiGod.PBm

In my opinion frog oil induced natural chakra does the same thing as Kyuubi chakra, which leads me to believe that they work in a similar fashion.



Why do you think that the disruptive chakra has to come from a source that has its own consciousness? Kirabi said his method was the result of having control over his bijuu, which suggests that HE ordered Hachibi to interfere with his normal chakra. No different from senjutsu, right?

@ The stig: When Chiyo and Sakura injected chakra into Naruto to free him from Itachi's genjutsu, was that not from an external source?

@ SHADENINJA: Doesn't a new kind of chakra imply that it is a separate flow of chakra? Naruto's Kyuubi transformations are the result of mixing Kyuubi chakra and normal chakra, again, no different than senjutsu.

it's not a new kind of chakra. it's a new kind of energy being used to make the chakra. ordinarily chakra is made up of spiritual energy and physical energy. the senjutsu uses nature energy to make a new, stronger kind of chakra, but at the end of the day it is still just chakra, and it all comes from one source.

[DemiGod.PBm]

Originally Posted by ifeanyi84

it's not a new kind of chakra. it's a new kind of energy being used to make the chakra. ordinarily chakra is made up of spiritual energy and physical energy. the senjutsu uses nature energy to make a new, stronger kind of chakra, but at the end of the day it is still just chakra, and it all comes from one source.

Please can you explain how biju, masses of chakra, are different from natural energy? Surely in its current form, the Kyuubi is no more than spiritual energy.

[ifeanyi84]

the bijuus are masses of chakra. it's been stated in the manga. chakra is composed of different types of energy. this has also been stated in the manga. clearly kishi has made a distinction between chakra and energy.

[pawnblue]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe the answer lies in genjutsu, not the source of the chakra.

Genjutsu works by controlling the chakra of your adversary. It can be dispelled by low-level ninja by disrupting their own chakra (like Shikamaru at the Chuunin playoffs). So the source doesn't always need to be outside, it just needs to be disruptive enough to break the control.

KillerBee disrupted the genjutsu by either using the 8-tails chakra (like Shikamaru) or by having the 8-tails consciousness disrupt it for him.

If Naruto was in a genjutsu, his opponent would be unlikely to know how he was using the Senjutsu chakra (and even if they did they couldn't see it). My guess is that this means that it would be impossible for the genjutsu user to control this chakra.

The result seems to be that either Naruto's influx of Senjutsu chakra would disrupt his own and break the genjutsu, or that Naruto wouldn't be able to balance the Senjutsu chakra, and he'd turn into a frog.

[NarutoSamaman]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Correction, the magnitude of chakra, or the quality of chakra has nothing to do with it.
Simply another chakra source, outside of a certian individuals chakra is needed to disrupty or counteract the invading chakra, if said individual is incapable of dispelling it himself(which is generally the case with sharingan genjutsu) the power level of the chakra has nothing to do with it.

The reason why what killerbee did is specific only to jinchuriki's, is becuase only hosts of bijuu's have foreign chakra that could be applied in that way, inside of them to the point where they dont need anyone else snapping them out of the genjutsu.

Normal shinobi would either have to use senjutsu(which the majority of all shinobi cannot) or have a freind help them like with naruto in itachis genjutsu.

What i didn't understand was how the bijuu managed to break the Tsukiyomi(ie: how an internal source using its own chakra is any diff from an external party doing the same thing) as Tsukiyomi cannot be repelled via a friend saving the person who's trapped in the genjutsu.

[Shinobi-kun]

Originally Posted by DemiGod.PBm

Dunno if someone has said this before, but in light of what Kirabi said about jinchuuriki using their biju to nullify genjutsu, it became apparent that Naruto would eventually be able to do the same.

However, since Naruto to trying to avoid using Kyuubi's chakra and his opponent will at some stage be a master of genjutsu (who can suppress Kyuubi), he needs another ally or means of dispelling genjutsu.

As is the case with using bijuu chakra, senjutsu gives the user a foreign source of chakra, which is one of the requirements for breaking genjutsu.

There's no evidence to support this theory, although it makes sense of Itachi's claim that fight between he and Jiraiya would result in a draw.

Any thoughts on this?

senjutsu chakra isn't sentient. It doesn't act on its own, so no, i dont believe that a senjutsu user is immune to genjutsu.

[Gathan]

Originally Posted by DemiGod.PBm

Why do you think that the disruptive chakra has to come from a source that has its own consciousness? Kirabi said his method was the result of having control over his bijuu, which suggests that HE ordered Hachibi to interfere with his normal chakra. No different from senjutsu, right?

Exactly, he know he was in a genjutsu so he told his bijuu to disrupt his chakra.

Originally Posted by Shinobi-kun

senjutsu chakra isn't sentient. It doesn't act on its own, so no, i dont believe that a senjutsu user is immune to genjutsu.

Being sentient has nothing to do with disrupting the chakra flow, all you need is a another source of chakra besides your own to break the genjutsu.
I see no reason why senjutsu wouldn't work since it is another that isn't under control of the genjutsu and those could be used to break it by disrupting the flow.