Adam and Eve

[9tailedgenie]

i only read the first post, the others look hecka long but from my learnings he asked them because he gave us free will, the choice to answer right.

Why don't you just visit a church and ask the pastors or someone who knows a lot, i'm not telling you to convert but if you really want answers or are just curious it wont hurt to go to church and hear what they have to say.

[kafukai]

Originally Posted by Yedi

For what gain does he by creating evil? he could just make human commit evil acts if they wanted or not instead of getting tricked into doing it.

To show that God is the lord of all kind and God is invincible.

Originally Posted by AnarchoElk

One, that doesn't prove he is omnipotent, just touched in the head.

Plase, address my claim that omnipotence is impossible due to a logical fallacy between knowledge and power before you make ignorant claims about omnipotence, considering it cannot exist in the first place.

Maybe?!

[Yedi]

Originally Posted by kafukai

To show that God is the lord of all kind and God is invincible.

Does a god of all things need to ask a question? no since he already know what you will say, so there you go, your god is not a god of all things.

Originally Posted by 9tailedgenie

i only read the first post, the others look hecka long but from my learnings he asked them because he gave us free will, the choice to answer right.

Why don't you just visit a church and ask the pastors or someone who knows a lot, i'm not telling you to convert but if you really want answers or are just curious it wont hurt to go to church and hear what they have to say.

I am not only interested in conversion. I just simply states flaw in something people believe in blindly.

[Mika-kun]

Originally Posted by 9tailedgenie

i only read the first post, the others look hecka long but from my learnings he asked them because he gave us free will, the choice to answer right.

Why don't you just visit a church and ask the pastors or someone who knows a lot, i'm not telling you to convert but if you really want answers or are just curious it wont hurt to go to church and hear what they have to say.

Why would I go to people about a fairy tale book written by some drunk men just to be interpreted by somebody else?

What do they know that makes them so knowing? What makes supposedly know more about it then somebody else? Just because they wear the title, Priest? Pastor?

If they were there in the time of "Christ" then yeah, I'll listen to them, but they weren't.

Until I have 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9% proof, it's a no go for me.

Not going to waste time talking to somebody who is at the same level as the rest of us are, just because that is his domain doesn't mean he actually knows the "truth" he wasn't there when it all happened, I just cant see myself entering a church and taking these guys seriously.

[kafukai]

Originally Posted by Yedi

Does a god of all things need to ask a question? no since he already know what you will say, so there you go, your god is not a god of all things.

You wrong!
Maybe God will knew what you going to ask him, but that's the reason sometime God don't help - It's all of a part of a testing program.

[Sarah]

Not every Christian takes the bible word for word and in I don't think its possible considering the book itself has been revised by the very existence of the new testament. Yes the whole thing is full of faults, contradiction, and outdated stories where its hard for a lot of people to take everything literal, but does that me me think its a giant piece of crap? No I don't. How I look at the bible is a collection of stories of which was the appropriate code of values to live by at the time, and some are still relevant today. Why else would would it even be written except for that purpose?

The Adam and Eve story is a common story about accepting the consequences of your actions and not letting other manipulate you out of your own values. Which is extremely relevant in today's society. I don't know if there really was an Adam or Eve in which the story was based on. And about God existing it not really relevant to the spirit of the story and its kind stupid to base the value of the message on the existence of God. I understand the message behind 'King Midas' and I don't need to prove the fact that a person actually attained the golden touch to see its worth.

If people want to believe the bible is real account of events I say whatever floats your boat. If people just want to believe in God and not the bible that's fine to and the bible shouldn't be used as a way to discredit them. Nor should the bible be used to prove your own righteousness over another. That's just what I think.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by Sarah

The Adam and Eve story is a common story about accepting the consequences of your actions and not letting other manipulate you out of your own values. Which is extremely relevant in today's society. I don't know if there really was an Adam or Eve in which the story was based on. And about God existing it not really relevant to the spirit of the story and its kind stupid to base the value of the message on the existence of God. I understand the message behind 'King Midas' and I don't need to prove the fact that a person actually attained the golden touch to see its worth.

Err isn't the devil offering Eve knowledge of Good and Evil? and they were punished because they took it and it violated Gods orders?

I don't quite see how 'accepting consequences of your actions' equates to 'accepting being fucked over by God just because you want some knowledge', i wouldn't accept those consequences.

And what values were they being manipulated out of? wanting knowledge is a bad value that cheats us out of a better value? what is that?

[sadated_peon]

Originally Posted by Majin

Err isn't the devil offering Eve knowledge of Good and Evil? and they were punished because they took it and it violated Gods orders?

I don't quite see how 'accepting consequences of your actions' equates to 'accepting being fucked over by God just because you want some knowledge', i wouldn't accept those consequences.

And what values were they being manipulated out of? wanting knowledge is a bad value that cheats us out of a better value? what is that?

I think you missing Sarah's point....

Though you may disagree with the narrative that is trying to be displayed, it is true that the fable has a moral condition which is trying to be imprinted on the reader.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Majin

Err isn't the devil offering Eve knowledge of Good and Evil? and they were punished because they took it and it violated Gods orders?

I don't quite see how 'accepting consequences of your actions' equates to 'accepting being fucked over by God just because you want some knowledge', i wouldn't accept those consequences.

And what values were they being manipulated out of? wanting knowledge is a bad value that cheats us out of a better value? what is that?

There you go there is another lesson. Just because you want knowledge does not give you the right to obtain it however you want. We live by the 'laws of society'. Just because the police want to find out if a suspect is guilty does not give them the right to listen to the private conversations the suspect has with their attorney. Just because I want to know what the inside of someones house looks like does not give me the right to just break in. The tree was God's and he told Adam and Eve not to touch it so they violated someone else's property to get what they want.

Adam and Eve didn't want to disobey God but the were manipulated by the snakes false promises and lies. Example.

'Steal the answers to the midterm Suzy and we'll be able to ace the test.'

'But Jill isn't it against school rules to cheat'

'Don't you want to ace the test though?'

'I don't know...'

'Come on Suzy do it for me.'

'Alright Jill, but we'll just take a quick peak and study'

She all they wanted Majin was a litte knowledge, but is it really right to break the rules to get it?

Though of course you wouldn't get the moral of the story because you are too hard-headed in your quest to make anything about religion worthless.

[ChocolateThunder]

Sigh. I really was going to let it slide, too.

Originally Posted by Sarah

There you go there is another lesson. Just because you want knowledge does not give you the right to obtain it however you want. We live by the 'laws of society'. Just because the police want to find out if a suspect is guilty does not give them the right to listen to the private conversations the suspect has with their attorney. Just because I want to know what the inside of someones house looks like does not give me the right to just break in. The tree was God's and he told Adam and Eve not to touch it so they violated someone else's property to get what they want.

This is a classic case of a catch-22, so to speak. The tree endowed a knowledge of good and evil, right? That being the case, isn't the only way Adam and Eve could have known what they did was wrong by eating the fruit which endows that knowledge?

Alas, at that point, they have already done wrong which defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Not to mention God being a callous dick and placing blatant temptation in front of two people who couldn't have possibly had a sense of morality. As ELK pointed out, it's entrapment. I chalk this up more to the shoddy writing of ancient desert-dwellers than anything, though.

Adam and Eve didn't want to disobey God but the were manipulated by the snakes false promises and lies. Example.

Ignoring how inherently illogical this is, it seems the logical thing to wonder is, "Why did God allow the snake into the garden in the first place?" This becomes more of an issue when you consider, as I said, that Adam and Eve had no sense of right and wrong having not eaten the fruit which endowed such knowledge thus had no means not to be swayed. What did God expect? For them to uphold morals they did not yet possess?

'Steal the answers to the midterm Suzy and we'll be able to ace the test.'

'But Jill isn't it against school rules to cheat'

The difference here being that Jill has a sense of morality; Eve, if the story were consistent, didn't.

'Don't you want to ace the test though?'

'I don't know...'

'Come on Suzy do it for me.'

'Alright Jill, but we'll just take a quick peak and study'

She all they wanted Majin was a litte knowledge, but is it really right to break the rules to get it?

When you consider they needed that knowledge to realize, "Oh shit, we broke the rules!"

Though of course you wouldn't get the moral of the story because you are too hard-headed in your quest to make anything about religion worthless.

Or, crazy thought, the story is incoherent dribble.

[Sarah]

So basically there is know moral behind the story because it has flawed logic? Give me one story that contains a moral that is in know way flawed at all. Even if you want to beleive that God is a dick in the story thats fine, but still it was his tree. Eve had to be 'talked into' eating the fruit so you would have to assume she didn't want to. Then after she ate and as you said 'learned right from wrong' She convinced Adam to take a bite. So really she knew what she was doing, right?

We can argue all day about these little details that have nothing to do with the moral of the story just so you can feel better about the bible having absolutle no value, but thats not the point I was trying to make.

[ChocolateThunder]

Originally Posted by Sarah

So basically there is know moral behind the story because it has flawed logic?

The flawed logic renders the moral flawed, if you think about it. Can you still get something out of it? Sure, I guess.

Give me one story that contains a moral that is in know way flawed at all.

Theres a difference between "in no way flawed" and "flawed at its very essence to the point the story can no longer survive honest scrutiny". I can show you many stories that are not the latter like, say, the Adam and Eve story...

Even if you want to beleive that God is a dick in the story thats fine, but still it was his tree.

And?

His tree he planted in front of two people who, logically, had no sense of morality (or the ethical implications of ownership) as a means of entrapment exacerbated by a manipulative serpent God allowed to tempt said literally amoral people. Or are we going to conveniently forget God's omniscience?

That's not what the author was going for, I'm sure, but that's what I'm left with.

And frankly, I could derive a moral out of Mein Kampf if I tried hard enough? At what point is it simply common sense to know, "I shouldn't take shit that's not mine!" or "God is wrathful."

Eve had to be 'talked into' eating the fruit so you would have to assume she didn't want to. Then after she ate and as you said 'learned right from wrong' She convinced Adam to take a bite. So really she knew what she was doing, right?

What about Adam?

So the moral is that someone else's folly (Serpent/Eve) can trick you into commiting some unforgivable sin?

We can argue all day about these little details that have nothing to do with the moral of the story just so you can feel better about the bible having absolutle no value, but thats not the point I was trying to make.

Little details? A plot hole that renders the entire story moot is not, by any means, little.

[Digital Masta]

Adam and eve I question, noah I question, Mary being a virgin her whole damn life even after Jesus was born and she is married? Yea I question. But I don't deny God or Jesus because to me there is to much showing me otherwise and I don't rely on faith.

I recently had a discussion with a family friend who attends the church my parents do and she's very sound when it comes to christianity, really studied her faith and knows it well so I listen to what she has to say...apparently it states in the bible that Jesus had sibilings. Apparently it's a catholic thing that Mary was a virgin her whole life.

I believe it's around the point where Jesus is getting crucified that they mention certain people in the audience being his mother and siblings.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by sadated_peon

I think you missing Sarah's point....

Though you may disagree with the narrative that is trying to be displayed, it is true that the fable has a moral condition which is trying to be imprinted on the reader.

No, i do get Sarah's point, her interpretation is a positive one whereby the story is about not being manipulated out of one's own values and accepting the consequences, she states this is relevant to today's society.

I object to that interpretation because it is wrong, accepting knowledge is NOT some evil manipulation, accepting Gods tyrannical punishment is NOT a good moral.

Which, if you read Sarah's following response, shows i am right.

Originally Posted by Sarah

There you go there is another lesson. Just because you want knowledge does not give you the right to obtain it however you want. We live by the 'laws of society'. Just because the police want to find out if a suspect is guilty does not give them the right to listen to the private conversations the suspect has with their attorney. Just because I want to know what the inside of someones house looks like does not give me the right to just break in. The tree was God's and he told Adam and Eve not to touch it so they violated someone else's property to get what they want.

No, we live by laws under the rationale the law helps society, we do not accept laws that harm society, this is fundamentally the difference between oppression and a peaceful country.

Having a tree that contains knowledge, barring people from eating that tree, is equivalent to not allowing people to go to school.

Can you give me some reason why preventing people from knowing good and evil is a good thing? or is this the case of 'god said so therefore it is right, it is right because God said so?'

Originally Posted by Sarah

Adam and Eve didn't want to disobey God but the were manipulated by the snakes false promises and lies. Example.

what false promises and lies? iirc when they ate it, they in fact got knowledge of Good and Evil.

The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

There was no lies or deceit, they got exactly what the Devil said, except the part where the devil said they wouldn't be punished by God, God did in fact punish them with

To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

Is it ok to give people physical pain for taking one of my tree's apples? is it ok to make every man and woman in the world inequal in gender equality because of this one act of wanting knowledge?

Originally Posted by Sarah

She all they wanted Majin was a litte knowledge, but is it really right to break the rules to get it?

No actually, their goal was to ace the test.

[Dendra]

Wasn't eve curious..didn't the devil trick them? Not god. I've never seen such blasphemy o.o

[Yedi]

Originally Posted by kafukai

You wrong!
Maybe God will knew what you going to ask him, but that's the reason sometime God don't help - It's all of a part of a testing program.

YOU WRONG! -.- *sigh* (Irony doesn't work over the internet)

Testing for what? he already know the outcome if he let you do it, so why bother with testing from the beginning? And now if God is "all mighty and knowing" he shouldn't testing something from the beginning, right?

Originally Posted by Dendra

Wasn't eve curious..didn't the devil trick them? Not god. I've never seen such blasphemy o.o

Curious, why? Since the evil snake tricked her and if now god is all mighty and knowing he would have known the snake would trick ve and Adam to eat it, hence God did break a law called entrapment.

[Kataklyzm]

Um, God didn't create the Devil, the Devil is a fallen angel, so he's basically a rebel. He had free will too, and made bad choice of it. The Bible does not support Destiny or Fate. Satan chose to become the Devil, he wasn't made that way. Humans have no right to use their judgment to decide if God is right or wrong. That's taking an insanely arrogant position.

Stranger still, why are some people who don't believe in God even posting in here?