Adam and Eve

[nejix321]

It's quite simple God gave Adam and Eve free will, therefore he didn't interfere and let them make they're own choices.

@AnarchoElk: Why do you come in here basically to say the bible isn't true? If you don't believe in the bible, you basically don't believe Adam or Eve were real. So why come here and post about something that's not real to you?

[Majin]

Originally Posted by Sarah

@Majin
Your argument seems to be ' I took everything word for word and it doesn't express values that one would have in a perfect society so there for it can't be relevant.
How the hell is that even possible?

Actually my argument is you didn't take it word for word.

You say it teaches someone to 'accept responsibility for their actions', how? by God making Adam and Eve suffer unjustly and banishing them from the Garden, at what point did they 'accept'? its more like they just had to live with it.

And is it even a good moral, it is more 'accept whatever tyrannical ruler dishes out to you'.

You say it teaches 'not to let you get your values manipulated out of' what values did they have? if they did not have knowledge of Good and evil, there would be not one value in them that is remotely good.

In fact the devil is the good guy in the story tbh.

That is why CT tells you the illogic in the story destroys your attempts at saying it has any moral value, because you cannot reasonably infer any moral value from the story.

Originally Posted by Sarah

Honestly if I look at most fairy tales and other such stories i find them riddled with sexism and other discrimination's, dictators, evil villains that trick the poor innocents, innocents dying and so on and so forth yet most people can still see the value behind all the crud or adapt it to the times. Though just because this is the 'BIBLE' you want to hold it to this unbelievably high standard and if it does stand unflawed it becomes worthless. I never held it to that standard and nor do i look at it that way at all. Like anything written this it is written with the morals and culture of that time. Its written to help explain the world such as Greek mythology or folklore. I've heard some American Indian and African folklore that give animals power over people and animal will reason why some of the human ailments at the time. Now this is unbelievably flawed to me because come on animals are fucking food, but can I still grasp the message? Of course. So like I said before I don't look at the bible as an absolute good that is completely beyond question, but at the same time I don't look at it like a piece of crap that should be thrown out of existence.

You said.

Originally Posted by sarah

Which is extremely relevant in today's society

So yes, i have to hold it to today's society if your going to claim it is relevant to today's society.

And nothing in the Adam and Eve story has any redeeming value in today's society, not scientifically and not morally.

Also those thing's you said also have no redeeming value even in the time it was made, lets take an example, it used to be believed that bad spirits caused diseases, there is not one redeeming value in this belief, not now and not then.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Majin

Actually my argument is you didn't take it word for word.

You say it teaches someone to 'accept responsibility for their actions', how? by God making Adam and Eve suffer unjustly and banishing them from the Garden, at what point did they 'accept'? its more like they just had to live with it.

And is it even a good moral, it is more 'accept whatever tyrannical ruler dishes out to you'.

You say it teaches 'not to let you get your values manipulated out of' what values did they have? if they did not have knowledge of Good and evil, there would be not one value in them that is remotely good.

In fact the devil is the good guy in the story tbh.

That is why CT tells you the illogic in the story destroys your attempts at saying it has any moral value, because you cannot reasonably infer any moral value from the story.


You said.

So yes, i have to hold it to today's society if your going to claim it is relevant to today's society.

And nothing in the Adam and Eve story has any redeeming value in today's society, not scientifically and not morally.

Also those thing's you said also have no redeeming value even in the time it was made, lets take an example, it used to be believed that bad spirits caused diseases, there is not one redeeming value in this belief, not now and not then.

Actually look at it more this way Adam and eve were in essence God's children with out an understanding of right and wrong yet just like any other children. All the children knew was they were supposed to listen to their parent (God), which is why they were so hesitant to eat the fruit, who may have felt they weren't ready for the knowledge just like any parent might feel. Hell if my 8 yr. old child tried to look up porn after I told him not to go to any site othre than the one's I specified because an older child told him it would be great and he'd learn a lot I sure as hell would be pissed. I would probably ground my child for disobaying me. Do you honestly think I would give my child a choice on wether he want to be punished? Hell no. He has to learn that I am the boss and as long as he is my underage child he has got to listen to me, because I'm the adult and I understand whats better for him then he does for himself. He has no choice that to accept his punishment no matter how unfair he may think it is. Yes the punishment in Adam and Eve was extreme, but Chrit that what makes it a story and not a mannual on child rearing.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Actually look at it more this way Adam and eve were in essence God's children with out an understanding of right and wrong yet just like any other children. All the children knew was they were supposed to listen to their parent (God), which is why they were so hesitant to eat the fruit, who may have felt they weren't ready for the knowledge just like any parent might feel. Hell if my 8 yr. old child tried to look up porn after I told him not to go to any site othre than the one's I specified because an older child told him it would be great and he'd learn a lot I sure as hell would be pissed. I would probably ground my child for disobaying me. Do you honestly think I would give my child a choice on wether he want to be punished? Hell no. He has to learn that I am the boss and as long as he is my underage child he has got to listen to me, because I'm the adult and I understand whats better for him then he does for himself. He has no choice that to accept his punishment no matter how unfair he may think it is. Yes the punishment in Adam and Eve was extreme, but Chrit that what makes it a story and not a mannual on child rearing.

Still incorrect.

It is only right for parents to punish a child for disobeying them insofar as the parents order is beneficial for the child to be followed.

If a parent order's a child to never read a book to learn, and they do, is the parents punishment justified? no, nor is the parents order right.

My analogy is correct, while your's is incorrect, the basis of disciplining a child who looks at porn is because (presumably) pornography is immoral.

In fact i would rather my kid to disobey me if my order is not beneficial, rather than blindly listen to me, this is part of being mature and growing up, doing what you think is right.

And no matter how you try and spin it, punishing someone simply for wanting knowledge is wrong, no matter what, any attempts at justification alway's sound shit, because it is shit.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Majin

Still incorrect.

It is only right for parents to punish a child for disobeying them insofar as the parents order is beneficial for the child to be followed.

If a parent order's a child to never read a book to learn, and they do, is the parents punishment justified? no, nor is the parents order right.

My analogy is correct, while your's is incorrect, the basis of disciplining a child who looks at porn is because (presumably) pornography is immoral.

In fact i would rather my kid to disobey me if my order is not beneficial, rather than blindly listen to me, this is part of being mature and growing up, doing what you think is right.

And no matter how you try and spin it, punishing someone simply for wanting knowledge is wrong, no matter what, any attempts at justification alway's sound shit, because it is shit.

So I should just let my child look up porn to gain knowledge of the human body, no matter how young. God might have had other plans for them to gain the knowledge and in a time he might deem more appropriate. I don't think its appropriate for my 8 yr old to look up porn but when he's 16 I wouldn't mind. Plus God wasn't punishing them for wanting knowledge he was punishing them for disobaeying him. For all we know Adam and Eve could have went to God and said I think we are ready to learn now and God could have let them eat the fruit under his supervision.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by Sarah

So I should just let my child look up porn to gain knowledge of the human body, no matter how young.

If my child was curious, instead of punishing them i'd explain to them about sex.

Originally Posted by Sarah

Plus God wasn't punishing them for wanting knowledge he was punishing them for disobaeying him. For all we know Adam and Eve could have went to God and said I think we are ready to learn now and God could have let them eat the fruit under his supervision.

Simply disobeying someone is not a valid excuse to punish someone.

People living in tyrannical regime's that forbid criticism should not be punished if they do criticize the regime.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Majin

If my child was curious, instead of punishing them i'd explain to them about sex.


Simply disobeying someone is not a valid excuse to punish someone.

People living in tyrannical regime's that forbid criticism should not be punished if they do criticize the regime.

Good luck on being a parent, acutally good luck being in any position of authority. People get punished all the time for disobeying its how society works. For example if I get caught going over the legal speed limit I am disobeying and the officer has every right to give me a ticket as punishment.

You don't punish children for being curious but you punish them for disobeying. If they think its always okay not to listen to you and go behind your back to get what they want then they could end up inreversibly hurt in the long run or even dead. Like what if my child decided to learn about sex from the pervy pedo down the street instead of coming to me. Even if I told him not to go off with strangers, talk to strangers, and so forth. Of course children are going to assume they know better about everything and since I never made him face any consquences he sees no worries in doing what he want regardless of my input. So he goes and gets raped by this guy and now he's in a pain far beyond any punishment I could give.

Though for you to get anything from from the story you have to assume that you personally don't know everything and that someone else may know more than you on certain issues(and no not me). Oh and the world is not fucking perfect so there is no reason why we should only take in knowledge that pertains to a perfect world.

Here is another side you can look at it that pertains to a lot of stuff we've been hearing about the middle east. If you disobey your leader you could get killed, banished, tortured and so on and so forth and yes you will be forced to take your punishment. Its sad, but oh so very true. So the moral of the story, if you want to look at it that way is know what you are getting into before you take the leap even if you don't know if your actual action is right or wrong.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Good luck on being a parent, acutally good luck being in any position of authority. People get punished all the time for disobeying its how society works. For example if I get caught going over the legal speed limit I am disobeying and the officer has every right to give me a ticket as punishment.

That is because speeding can get you killed, the rule is beneficial, therefore it is permissable to punish people who go against it.

You don't yet realize this, that disobeying itself does not warrant punishment.

Originally Posted by Sarah

You don't punish children for being curious but you punish them for disobeying. If they think its always okay not to listen to you and go behind your back to get what they want then they could end up inreversibly hurt in the long run or even dead. Like what if my child decided to learn about sex from the pervy pedo down the street instead of coming to me. Even if I told him not to go off with strangers, talk to strangers, and so forth. Of course children are going to assume they know better about everything and since I never made him face any consquences he sees no worries in doing what he want regardless of my input. So he goes and gets raped by this guy and now he's in a pain far beyond any punishment I could give.

Which is why you should explain to the child if they are curious.

Btw your argument is flawed anyway, Gods punishment was a curse for all mankind, do you propose punishing your child's children for the child's actions?

How absurd, as i said, the story has no moral value.

Originally Posted by Sarah

Though for you to get anything from from the story you have to assume that you personally don't know everything and that someone else may know more than you on certain issues(and no not me). Oh and the world is not fucking perfect so there is no reason why we should only take in knowledge that pertains to a perfect world.

Wanting knowledge is a virtue, even in this imperfect world.

Originally Posted by Sarah

Here is another side you can look at it that pertains to a lot of stuff we've been hearing about the middle east. If you disobey your leader you could get killed, banished, tortured and so on and so forth and yes you will be forced to take your punishment. Its sad, but oh so very true. So the moral of the story, if you want to look at it that way is know what you are getting into before you take the leap even if you don't know if your actual action is right or wrong.

However you contradict the story, God intentionally kept Adam and Eve in ignorance, after all he forbade them from eating the fruit.

if your moral is correct, wouldn't you actually support them getting knowledge? because with that knowledge they can therefore 'know' what they will get into in the future?

The story contradicts you at every turn.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Majin

That is because speeding can get you killed, the rule is beneficial, therefore it is permissable to punish people who go against it.

You don't yet realize this, that disobeying itself does not warrant punishment.


Which is why you should explain to the child if they are curious.

Btw your argument is flawed anyway, Gods punishment was a curse for all mankind, do you propose punishing your child's children for the child's actions?

How absurd, as i said, the story has no moral value.


Wanting knowledge is a virtue, even in this imperfect world.


However you contradict the story, God intentionally kept Adam and Eve in ignorance, after all he forbade them from eating the fruit.

if your moral is correct, wouldn't you actually support them getting knowledge? because with that knowledge they can therefore 'know' what they will get into in the future?

The story contradicts you at every turn.

How would you know a child is curious unless they come to you first! As i said beleive what you want Majin if the story has no moral value to you then then it doesn't it but to say someone else's interpertation is wrong because it doesn't fit perfectly into your value system is absurd and isn't that exactly why you call the the whole thing worthless because you don't fit into your value system? Or is it just because how you think is the only right way? All was trying to say is the lesson I took for the story and how its revelant today. I guess we differ on our values, but that okay. It doesn't make either of us right. I don't know whatelse to say on the matter because it feels we just come around in a big circle.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by Sarah

How would you know a child is curious unless they come to you first! As i said beleive what you want Majin if the story has no moral value to you then then it doesn't it but to say someone else's interpertation is wrong because it doesn't fit perfectly into your value system is absurd and isn't that exactly why you call the the whole thing worthless because you don't fit into your value system? Or is it just because how you think is the only right way? All was trying to say is the lesson I took for the story and how its revelant today. I guess we differ on our values, but that okay. It doesn't make either of us right. I don't know whatelse to say on the matter because it feels we just come around in a big circle.

I personally don't support the idea that anyone can interpret anything anyway they want, and that is valid.

In fact it doesn't even make sense logically, and it makes the very purpose of language obsolete.

You lift these vague generalized 'morals' from the story, but they do not make sense even IN the story, it would be like someone saying 'if you hate asians you should kill them' and i go around and interpret that to have the moral 'you should act on things you feel strongly for'.

If your of the mindset that anyone can interpret anything anyway they want, then that's your business, i personally think that's a stupid way to go, and pretty much has been the cause of many inter-religious conflict.

[Lord_Sasori]

Your looking too deep into the story and its meaning. All Adam and Eve is about is the discovery of human awareness and having consciousness. Thus the reason they were ashamed of what they were after biting from the tree of knowledge.

It has nothing to do with sex or God not being what he says he is..

Of course you could do what many secularist love to do which is intepret the passage in their own meaning and creating debates and arguements over different intepretations.. That being said you can believe whatever it is you choose in regards to this story. Have fun!

[Lord_Sasori]

Originally Posted by nejix321

It's quite simple God gave Adam and Eve free will, therefore he didn't interfere and let them make they're own choices.

@AnarchoElk: Why do you come in here basically to say the bible isn't true? If you don't believe in the bible, you basically don't believe Adam or Eve were real. So why come here and post about something that's not real to you?

If he really said the bible isn't real at all then he is far more delusional than religious fundamentalist LOL

[Mika-kun]

Originally Posted by 9tailedgenie

i just said i'm not converting you, if you want to know answers just visit, ok i mean if you really dont want to go then don't ask. it seems you just want to try to break down people's beliefs which i think you should respect. if their faith is strong enough all your question will do is make yourself more of a non believer.



so you have 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 % proof that he is not real? i'm pretty sure you don't. wouldn't you rather believe in god and find out he's not real after your dead, instead of not believing in him and findout he's real? i'm not saying taht should be your only reason in believing in god, but you're pretty much saying that you are sure that he is not real and if that is waht you think then i won't try to convert you or disrespect you but you are disrespecting this by saying that the bible is a fairy tail written by drunk men. how would you know, you were there in time of christ either so your pretty much being a hypocrite.

As goes for you.

Something as illogical as believing in such a story IMO is hilarious. I understand not all people take the book by the letter. But if I have no proof at all from any1 that god exists because nobody was alive to tell then yeah I'm gonna say I wont believe it till I see it.

No proof if god exists? Nah I wasn't there but I'm not going to believe people when they say the book is the truth and past of what not of christ. Obviously I have no proof saying he doesn't exist but nothing much proves he does. I'm a little skeptical about the book and about what people may say. IMO it makes more sense since we cannot see him or what not to not believe in him.

And about heaven or hell.

I also think that isn't true because nobody has ever came back to tell us

If it happens it happens I'd like to come back and tell you guys, Oh crap they were right. But until then I'll be just a hypocritical as the rest of the people here.

I try to follow logic instead of false claims nobody can back it up with.

EDIT:

I would also like to apologize if I have disrespected you.

[Yedi]

Originally Posted by 9tailedgenie

i just said i'm not converting you, if you want to know answers just visit, ok i mean if you really dont want to go then don't ask.

it seems you just want to try to break down people's beliefs which i think you should respect. if their faith is strong enough all your question will do is make yourself more of a non believer.

LOL why should I visit a church to meet a priest whom has the same knowledge as you? or don't you have the knowledge of the bible? I rather debate in here instead of going away to a church and make a ruckus.

breaking believes? I am just stating on how illogical the bible is an trying to make you understand it.

Originally Posted by nejix321

It's quite simple God gave Adam and Eve free will, therefore he didn't interfere and let them make they're own choices.

@AnarchoElk: Why do you come in here basically to say the bible isn't true? If you don't believe in the bible, you basically don't believe Adam or Eve were real. So why come here and post about something that's not real to you?

So you don't think that scientist shouldn't debate their theories?

[Insin]

Originally Posted by Yedi

LOL why should I visit a church to meet a priest whom has the same knowledge as you? or don't you have the knowledge of the bible? I rather debate in here instead of going away to a church and make a ruckus.

breaking believes? I am just stating on how illogical the bible is an trying to make you understand it.

He has a point, which you might have missed. It was that debating doesn't necessarily have to entail trying to crush someone else's beliefs. Many of us are bound to disagree, but there is a civil way to oppose or challenge someone else's views without trying to strip them of their beliefs.

But on the same token, debating is pointless if you are intent on being closeminded and not considering other possibilities, especially in the light of evidence that conflicts some of your beliefs.

Also, one would hope that a priest has a somewhat more refined understanding of the Bible. Of course this does not always happen, but I found that my best debates came when I debated theologians/professors and other experts in the field.

So you don't think that scientist shouldn't debate their theories?

It's simpler than that. Advocating a different view provides fodder for discussion, although unfortunately many people here try to turn it into a personal attack because they get defensive.