Is Exorcism real?

[Bonkai Renji]

Originally Posted by PC Chris

Over exaggerations.

It's very likely that priests probably over exaggerate the symptoms as there has never been any documented proof of super human strength or even levitation.

Unless you can provide evidence that this is true, then it's just an over exaggeration, something that tends to get done a lot.

well the only proof i can give is the story of jesus christ and him casting out the demons of a "wild" man. Jesus commanded demons to leave the "wild" man's body and to go into the near by sheep herd and go off the cliff and they did as he said.

Also how do you explain the more famous story of the exorcism of Emily Rose, they based a movie off of that.

[pschy_leprae]

Originally Posted by Rafcio

Doctor axing the patient is not a valid argument. Your other examples fail to show how the doctor could kill the patient. Since the medication isn't deadly, and the sickness is mental, then the doctor can't kill a patient by misdiagnosing him.

You shouldn't take sarcasms literary , in regards of axing .
tell me oh wise one what kind of doctors treat individuals with mental disorders ? Surgeons ? ( i guess brain surgeons can help some one with epileptic fit , but still i don't think some one with somatoform would go under a doctors knife ) . So doctor cannot kill patient with wrong prescription you say , ok how about his : prescribing penicillin to some one allergic to it ? Besides every medication has a negative side effect to it and the wrong combination might send patient into suicidal depression ,ever though of that fool? Same goes for exorcists , a good one should know difference between "spiritual" healing and healing requiring proper medicine. Regardless of the profession , idiot in charge is a dire sign . I did mentioned that exorcism might only help in rare causes and only if your believe in it right ?
In most causes it is our body that does the healing and medicine is there to facilitate the process , some times believe itself is enough to heal .
Alright to satisfy you i'll talk to my prof who actually specializes on disorders and see what she has to say on .

Talking about specialists specializing in Identity disorders : Putnam (1989, 1998) studies more than 150 causes of DID and still is clueless on how properly treat those , so if exorcism could help why not give it a try ? After all power of suggestion can be surprising powerful .

To finish this off raf you accuse me of lacking evidence yet I've provided with names of the researchers and studding , examples of physiological effects that those disorders might have and so on . Why don't you provide some experiments disproving mind-body connection and that somatoforms are purely physiologically produces disorders that cannot be treaded though cognitive therapy ? Or do you only have your opinion to support you ?

[Rafcio]

I'm not interested in speculations. If Putnam comes to a scientifically based conclusion that exorcism is helpful, then I'll concede. As of right now no positive conclusions can be drawn, and I wouldn't hold my breath.

I've proven my claim that exorcism is harmful with real life examples. The burden of proof is on you to show that it can be of significant help with treating/curing diseases. Until then, your claim has to be assumed as false, just like how banging your head on the table should be assumed as not helpful until proven otherwise.

[pschy_leprae]

Originally Posted by Rafcio

I'm not interested in speculations. .....
I've proven my claim that exorcism is harmful with real life examples.

And I've proven real doctors/psychiatrists can be as dangerous as exorcists , and current psychologists only have speculations on the cure/treatment .
So both ways out are equally hazardous . If were are to follow your proposal for kicking all the speculations out patients will go untreated , since both scientific approach to this subject is some what based on speculations and is not very clear . You do realize that every day people die because docs mess up right ?

Plus the opinion of some one who thinks that mental patients are treated by general practicions not psychiatrists, some one who doesn't understand dangers related to use of drugs and many other things , such opinion doesn't worth a much .

I should also repeat myself ,again , that exorcism might work only in certain causes .

[PC Chris]

Originally Posted by Captain Renj

well the only proof i can give is the story of jesus christ and him casting out the demons of a "wild" man. Jesus commanded demons to leave the "wild" man's body and to go into the near by sheep herd and go off the cliff and they did as he said.

Also how do you explain the more famous story of the exorcism of Emily Rose, they based a movie off of that.

1. Anything we know about Jesus was taken from the Bible,or from various forgeries. So using Jesus as your evidence doesn't exactly work especially since the chances he was actually a real person are rather low.

2. The Exorcism of Emily Rose is loosely and I can't stress this enough loosely based off Anneliese Michel. In her case there was no demonic possession especially since the criteria you described didn't fit into her case. What she really needed rather then a priest was heavy duty drugs.

[Rafcio]

@pschy
Treatment used by psychologists is not speculative, since it's based on studies and previous evidence. Even experimental medication has to get FDA approval.

Equally hazardous?
You seem to mistakenly think that if two things have some degree of uncertainty, then they're equal. By that logic you'd have just as much chance at winning at LOTTO as at a dice roll.
On one hand you have science based medicine, and on the other woowoo. They are not equal.



And again, you have not shown any evidence that shows exorcism to be helpful. Even if you disproved the whole realm of science and medicine, that would still not be a reason to see an exorcist.

[Bonkai Renji]

Originally Posted by PC Chris

1. Anything we know about Jesus was taken from the Bible,or from various forgeries. So using Jesus as your evidence doesn't exactly work especially since the chances he was actually a real person are rather low.

2. The Exorcism of Emily Rose is loosely and I can't stress this enough loosely based off Anneliese Michel. In her case there was no demonic possession especially since the criteria you described didn't fit into her case. What she really needed rather then a priest was heavy duty drugs.

1. There is more than enough evidence showing that Jesus was a real person such as Jesus said that his teachings would be preached throughout the world and to this day there is over 2 billion believers currently. Second he was able to come back to life after 3 days of his death and he reappeared among thousands of people.

2. Emily Rose i guess could of been explained because she was suffering from both eplisey and psychosis.

[PC Chris]

Originally Posted by Captain Renj

1. There is more than enough evidence showing that Jesus was a real person such as Jesus said that his teachings would be preached throughout the world and to this day there is over 2 billion believers currently. Second he was able to come back to life after 3 days of his death and he reappeared among thousands of people.

Bolded: Him and every other god-man.

the "come back to life after 3 days" is a recurring thing in paganism. I believe it was during the early stages of the roman empire there were "mystery cults" they were monotheistic in nature they were dedicated to one god. It's the victory over death element this is obvious in the story of Jesus which was also apparent in virtually hundreds of these mystery cults at the time. (the biggest being the cults centered around Osiris and Isis.)

But this isn't the thread to talk about that, if you want to debate it I suggest making a thread I'm not going to derail this topic.

[Syfer Van Hyden]

Originally Posted by Rafcio

I'm assuming pschy is referring to personality disorders, as he suggested earlier. Therefore it is realistically impossible to kill someone due to misdiagnosis.

I know misdiagnosis causing deaths can occur, I'm simply saying that it's irrelevant to my point, which is that believing/performing exorcisms is bad.

Originally Posted by Insin

With no empirical or tangible proof that exorcisms work, I'd advise against it.

That's irrelevant. The thread is not about whether or not exorcism is good or bad, it's about whether or not it exists.

[Insin]

lol, richard actually argues ok haha

btw, whether or not exorcism actually works is a good indicator if it is real or not. If it never works, how can it be real?

[Syfer Van Hyden]

Originally Posted by Insin

lol, richard actually argues ok haha

btw, whether or not exorcism actually works is a good indicator if it is real or not. If it never works, how can it be real?

That really doesnt matter, just because a certain method doesnt work doesnt make it non-existent.

[Kickz]

I think its real, some of the excorsizm I've seen on national geographic channel freaked me out.

[Syfer Van Hyden]

^They should exorcism on National Geographic? Really?

Strange.

[PC Chris]

There really is no proof or exorcisms any type of video can easily be editted or a simple fact that the person who's under the "demon" influence could either A. Be faking it for attention, Or B. they have a lot of psychological issues.

[Syfer Van Hyden]

Originally Posted by PC Chris

There really is no proof or exorcisms any type of video can easily be editted or a simple fact that the person who's under the "demon" influence could either A. Be faking it for attention, Or B. they have a lot of psychological issues.

If there really is no proof for exorcism, then you really cannot make any assumptions claiming that the person could be faking it or just has mental issues.

[Kickz]

Originally Posted by Pr0fessional_Wesker

^They should exorcism on National Geographic? Really?

Strange.

Yea they covered the topic. It looked pretty damn real from what I saw.

[Syfer Van Hyden]

^I posted a voice recording from an exorcism in Russia that i found in a website, i think it was in the previous page. Sounds disturbing.

[PC Chris]

Originally Posted by Pr0fessional_Wesker

If there really is no proof for exorcism, then you really cannot make any assumptions claiming that the person could be faking it or just has mental issues.

Yes I can;

If one explanation has no proof it isn't valid, where as mental health or lack their of can be proven. as well as faking a mental issue/exorcism.