Just a personal observation of prayer.

[Insin]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

If god is omnipresent, then every problem of existance is within his knowledge.....if your god knows all the problems of the world, then where exactly does this selfishness come from? If god is aware of every problem, and can deal with whatever problem, no matter the quantity anytime he feels like it, whenever and however.....then praying for somthing trivial to come true is not selfish, if you realize that every other problem can be handled via gods choosing.

Basically if god is god chooses to help others, he will help others.
He knows everything, so if he is going to choose to help your team win a game, this is reality..and it would be pointless to refrain from asking god for somthing like that, just becuase of more important matters exist...if they are to be dealt with, they will be dealt with, and your prayer is of no consiquence to the other problems of the world.

Then God would clearly not be omni-benevolent if he decides to answer the prayers of anxious athletes wanting to win an otherwise meaningless game, and then let millions starve and live despicably. What kind of God is that, if he answers the prayers of the athlete and not of the suffering? A pretty bad one.

I would disagree that its pointless to refrain. Surely there should be some discretion involved, otherwise I could pray that I don't miss a TV show, or that I have a snow day tomorrow. I could just ask God to take care of my entire life and keep asking him to hand things to me and make myself helpless. If Christianity is really the religion of compassion that it claims to be, than why don't people decide that perhaps other people need miracles more pressing than winning a contest?

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Insin

Then God would clearly not be omni-benevolent if he decides to answer the prayers of anxious athletes wanting to win an otherwise meaningless game, and then let millions starve and live despicably. What kind of God is that, if he answers the prayers of the athlete and not of the suffering? A pretty bad one.

Thats not the point, the point is all the prayers are equal eachother in the sense that he knows the problems they represent.
So whichever prayer he answers, is the prayer he answers period.
So wishing for somthing trivial is not being selfish.

Originally Posted by Insin

I would disagree that its pointless to refrain. Surely there should be some discretion involved, otherwise I could pray that I don't miss a TV show, or that I have a snow day tomorrow. I could just ask God to take care of my entire life and keep asking him to hand things to me and make myself helpless. If Christianity is really the religion of compassion that it claims to be, than why don't people decide that perhaps other people need miracles more pressing than winning a contest?

Exactly what does refraining from making the prayer accomplish if it has no consiquence on the actions god takes on whatever prayer he answers? Pray or dont pray, if god is going to answer a prayer, he is going to answer a prayer and no trivial prayer is going to efffect how he answers if he is omnipresent, and knows all.

It doesnt matter either way.
If you dont make the prayer, then he was never going to answer it in the first place.
If you make the prayer, and he answers it, that prayer in no way effects other prayers becuase if he was going to answer other prayers, he would answer them.

[Apoo]

It is being self-centered.. Weather god exists or not is not the issue, is not even relevant to the discussion. Is the thinking that God would answer your petty requests, even though is obvious that there are much more important things he can be spending his time on, like starving children. Is the thinking that god generally favors you or has you in mind over other people.

[Insin]

And Cane, I think you are also missing a big part of the argument as well.

If you pray to God to defeat your opponents, then you are asking God to raise you above others. You are asking him to favor you. What do you think would entitle a person to this?

And the argument is not a semantic argument of "I prayed the ball to go in the net, not to rise above my opponent" because the process of scoring is essentially that, rising above your competitor.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Lucky Rou

It is being self-centered.. Weather god exists or not is not the issue, is not even relevant to the discussion. Is the thinking that God would answer your petty requests, even though is obvious that there are much more important things he can be spending his time on, like starving children. Is the thinking that god generally favors you or has you in mind over other people.

How is it self centered?
If someone believes in an omnipresent god then by that, they know that god is aware of anything and everything.

Think of all the prayers in existance, from all areas of existance(not just earth) all going to one source, a celestial holy"Prayer sphere" if you will. With that sphere god does not read prayer before the others, he reads every prayer at precisely the exact same time, no prayer is seen before the other. Now for the sake of the debate, please for gods sake do not go off on how this contradicts logic, for the sake of the debate give the benefit of the doubt.

So if the god i explained exists, and has within his possesion the celestial holy "Prayer sphere"(which is basically another extension of his power) then how is it self centered to send your prayer to him?

If its to be answered, its to be answered...its as simple as that.

Originally Posted by Insin

And Cane, I think you are also missing a big part of the argument as well.

If you pray to God to defeat your opponents, then you are asking God to raise you above others. You are asking him to favor you. What do you think would entitle a person to this?

In all probablity your "Opponents" are doing the exact same thing.
What entitles them to do this aswell?

[Insin]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

In all probablity your "Opponents" are doing the exact same thing. What entitles them to do this as well?

C'mon Cane, that's not a real argument. You're just answering my question with the same question I asked you.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Insin

C'mon Cane, that's not a real argument. You're just answering my question with the same question I asked you.

Actually thats a perfect counter.
If both parties are asking for the destruction of the other, where exactly does that leave your original arguement about where the first party gets the idea of entitlement?

Plus its a common occurence.
I'm sure the germans wished death upon the allies, and the allies wished death upon the germans.
Who's right? Who's wrong?
How is one right? how is the other wrong?
How are they both wrong?
How are they both right?

This is your arguement in reverse.

[Insin]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Actually thats a perfect counter.
If both parties are asking for the destruction of the other, where exactly does that leave your original arguement about where the first party gets the idea of entitlement?

Plus its a common occurence.
I'm sure the germans wished death upon the allies, and the allies wished death upon the germans.
Who's right? Who's wrong?
How is one right? how is the other wrong?
How are they both wrong?
How are they both right?

This is your arguement in reverse.

No it's not the perfect counter, because there's no real argument to it. It's phrasing the question out of context. We're not talking about how prayers like that negate each other out because both sides pray to be risen above the other. We aren't talking about moral implications of warfare either.

The example I brought up was people asking to be favored by God. My question was why would a person feel like they should be chosen and favored? A lot of religions emphasize the idea that God loves everyone, yet praying in that fashion seems to undermine that belief. The fact that many people may pray like that about each other does not negate or change the fact that it is somewhat pretenious and arrogant to think that God will answer your prayer and favor you, while letting the other guy fair poorly in comparison.

[Apoo]

Thinking that God answers your prayers, but ignores others is self centered. If you attribute your survival of a crash to god, that is like saying god placed you above the other guy that didn't make it. My friend is always saying he's blessed. Every time he needs money he says god will provide somehow, and when gets his hand on the money he attributes it as a blessing from god. His thinking that god has him in mind, and acts to get him this money when he needs it is the very definition of self centered, considering that many people pray to god, for tremendously more significant matters, and their prayers are not answered. Believing that god will help you ace a test while knowing that people are dying of terrible illnesses every minute is nothing but arrogance. So god will help you with a test, but won't save the lives of many? Does god have a special plan for you? That sort of thinking is self centered.

Shit, thinking about it the very concept of god is self centered. How arrogant do we have to be to think we are important enough that there's some super powerful being out there who genuinely cares about us and intervenes in our lives and solves our problems. God is just something humans made to feel important.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Insin

The example I brought up was people asking to be favored by God. My question was why would a person feel like they should be chosen and favored?

I already answered this.
The answer is simple:Becuase everyone else who talks to god believes they should be favored aswell.

Originally Posted by Insin

A lot of religions emphasize the idea that God loves everyone, yet praying in that fashion seems to undermine that belief.

Question, what exactly is the difference between praying for your son to get better, and for a certian football team to win an important match?
As i have already shown all prayers are equal in the eyes of an omnipresent god becuase he see's them all at once, thus there really is no difference in his eyes, only ours. For as i said, whichever prayer is answered, is the prayer thats answered, period.
We see difference in importance, but the one praying for her son to get better is still asking for her son to be favored, over millions around the world that are dying.

Your arguement is pointless, becuase it basically says any prayer asking for somthing to happen, is expressing selfishness.

Originally Posted by Insin

The fact that many people may pray like that about each other does not negate or change the fact that it is somewhat pretenious and arrogant to think that God will answer your prayer and favor you, while letting the other guy fair poorly in comparison.

So a women praying for her son to get well, is being arrogant and pretentious because she wants god to heal her son, even though he might not heal others?

Originally Posted by Tony

Thinking that God answers your prayers, but ignores others is self centered. If you attribute your survival of a crash to god, that is like saying god placed you above the other guy that didn't make it. My friend is always saying he's blessed. Every time he needs money he says god will provide somehow, and when gets his hand on the money he attributes it as a blessing from god. His thinking that god has him in mind, and acts to get him this money when he needs it is the very definition of self centered, considering that many people pray to god, for tremendously more significant matters, and their prayers are not answered.

What you fail to realize is those people who are also praying and not having their prayers heard are also only thinking of themselves. If praying is inherently self centered, then is a double standard regardless how you slice it.

Those praying and not having their prayers heard, according to your arguement are hoping that god will favor them. They are doing exactly the same thing the others who's prayers were answered, were doing, merely their prayers came true. What they are praying for doesnt matter becuase everything is seen at the same time by god.

Originally Posted by Tony

So god will help you with a test, but won't save the lives of many? Does god have a special plan for you? That sort of thinking is self centered.

You really have no clue what you are talking about.

The people who believe god has a special plan for them personally, also believe god has a special plan for EVERYONE. I should know, i know many who believe that.

They dont simply say"God has a special plan for me" they say"God has a special plan for everyone" its part of the philosophy einstein.

Originally Posted by Tony

Shit, thinking about it the very concept of god is self centered. How arrogant do we have to be to think we are important enough that there's some super powerful being out there who genuinely cares about us and intervenes in our lives and solves our problems. God is just something humans made to feel important.

This is nothing more than cynical retardation.

Exactly what defines importance? HUMANS we define importance, we attribute importance to whatever we deem important.
If we humans feel important, THEN SO FUCKING BE IT!!! Exactly what arrogant about believing you are important? Believing your are important, does not mean you believe you are more important than everything else.

Wake the fuck up.

[Insin]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

I already answered this.
The answer is simple:Becuase everyone else who talks to god believes they should be favored aswell.

And you think they should do this? Why?

Question, what exactly is the difference between praying for your son to get better, and for a certian football team to win an important match?

One concerns the welfare of another person, the other is about glory and pride.

As i have already shown all prayers are equal in the eyes of an omnipresent god becuase he see's them all at once, thus there really is no difference in his eyes, only ours. For as i said, whichever prayer is answered, is the prayer thats answered, period.

That's make little sense to me, because that's like saying that all prayers are equal and God cannot discern the difference between "Please save my dying brother" and "please cancel school tomorrow, I didn't do my homework."

We see difference in importance, but the one praying for her son to get better is still asking for her son to be favored, over millions around the world that are dying.

I would disagree. While it does entail a sense of favoritism, the emphasis is more on helping that child regain a normal and happy life, as opposed to proving his dominance over others in physical competition.

Your arguement is pointless, becuase it basically says any prayer asking for somthing to happen, is expressing selfishness.

To ask in this case is to ask to receive, which benefits the self. Life is selfishness, although in varying degrees. Asking to recover from serious illness is different than asking to win the lottery. I also would differentiate between asking to be equal to others (I want to recover from illness) as opposed to being above them (I want to win this competition). Sure, it is asking to be favored, but we were attempting to weigh the merit of prayers in relation to one another. The OP addresses that from the get go.

We also should distinguish prayer on a need. A terminal illness cannot be cured. A game can be won without the help of God. Why ask for something to be handed to you when you probably have the ability to do it yourself? I think prayer in general is kind of pointless, but that's not the issue of debate. Crap, we've done the line exchange. I pray that Krozar doesn't get pissed off.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Insin

And you think they should do this? Why?

If they believe in god, then its only natural.
Why shouldnt they do this? its part of their religion.

Originally Posted by Insin

One concerns the welfare of another person, the other is about glory and pride.

Yet both are prayers seen at the same time by god.
Both are prayers made by someone who wants god to do somthing for them.

Originally Posted by Insin

That's make little sense to me, because that's like saying that all prayers are equal and God cannot discern the difference between "Please saving my dying brother" and "please cancel school tomorrow, I didn't do my homework."

The fact remains whatever prayer he will answer, is the prayer he will answer so ultimately they are equal in the sense that it doesnt matter what the prayers entail.
Do the prayer over a hundred times, if he is not going to answer it he is not going to answer it.

It couldnt be more simple.

Originally Posted by Insin

I would disagree. While it does entail a sense of favoritism, the emphasis is more on helping that child regain a normal and happy life, as opposed to proving his dominance over others in physical competition.

You admit the the more"Serious" example entails a sense of favoritism just as the trivial example does?
Then i present your question back to you.

Originally Posted by Insin

The example I brought up was people asking to be favored by God. My question was why would a person feel like they should be chosen and favored?

Originally Posted by Insin

To ask in this case is to ask to receive, which benefits the self. Life is selfishness, although in varying degrees. Asking to recover from serious illness is different than asking to win the lottery.

Objectively, its not.
If importance is subjective, then they are equal in the sense that they are simply prayers being requested by someone who wants to be favored.

Originally Posted by Insin

I also would differentiate between asking to be equal to others (I want to recover from illness) as opposed to being above them (I want to win this competition). Sure, it is asking to be favored, but we were attempting to weigh the merit of prayers in relation to one another.

Their relation to eachother is irrelevant if in the end only one is answered.
That one was to be the only one answered, so the discussion of whether which one was more important is negated, it doesnt matter.. it was not to be chosen.

Originally Posted by Insin

We also should distinguish prayer on a need. A terminal illness cannot be cured. A game can be won without the help of God. Why ask for something to be handed to you when you probably have the ability to do it yourself? I think prayer in general is kind of pointless, but that's not the issue of debate. Crap, we've done the line exchange. i pray that Krozar doesn't get pissed off.

Prayer is pointless to those who derive no significance from it.
To those who do find importance and significance within prayer, it means everything.
Trying to bash prayer by calling it selfish is quite silly, because in reality its not prayer thats selish, its humans that are inherently selfish. We wouldnt be capable of surivival if we did not possess selfish tendencys.

[Insin]

The fact remains whatever prayer he will answer, is the prayer he will answer so ultimately they are equal in the sense that it doesnt matter what the prayers entail.

Just because he doesn't answer the prayers, that means we should not distinguish between the superficiality of various prayers? Your argument basically says we should not bother to qualify different prayers because the only ones that matter are those that are answered so pray for whatever you want. I think that's exactly what you are saying. I disagree.

That one was to be the only one answered, so the discussion of whether which one was more important is negated, it doesnt matter.. it was not to be chosen.

Says who? God? I feel like I can still evaluate which prayer has a semblance of merit to it and which one is pointless, regardless of what God chooses. The fact that God chose to answer a meaningless prayer does not negate the suffering of the starving, simply because he doesn't feel like answering their prayers.

[sadated_peon]

I always thought that thanking god for near disasters was a strange thing to do.

For example a plane is coming to land and the landing gear goes and the plane makes a "miraculous" landing and no one is hurt.

Of course the next line is "God saved these people"

How does that logic come about?

Why isn't "God fucked with the landing gear"

It is the immediate assumption that anything good was the "hand of god" while as anything bad was human fault.

Just as it was human fault that lead to the landing gear failing it was human genius that made it so the plane made a safe landing through the pilots doing a great job and the engineers that built the plane designing it good enough to survive the landing gear failing.

Attributing thinks to god in these cases is done subjectively and methodically to self confirm belief.

It is no different from the pagan thanking Gaia for a good harvest, but at least they were constant and blamed other gods for when bad shit happened. Instead of the insufferable Catholic self hate.

[Keerua]

^Catholics are the shias of christianity, they just need to whip themselfs (I believe they do that in the philipinos? Crusifiy themselfs i mean)

[kai0x]

This personally annoys me as well. In many cases, I feel prayer is pure arrogance. And even beyond that, I feel to believe in a God that is actively involved in your life, whether making plans for your life, or answering prayers, or looking down on you, is egocentric. I know too many people with this need to feel superior and treasured by an all powerful being, and its almost sickening.

I've said this to many of my religious friends and they go on to tell me about their relationship with god and jesus and so on. But ultimately, I believe people just don't want to feel insignificant. Its human nature to place ourselves above the rest, and you can't get any higher than being the chosen one by the creator.

[rising crescent]

Prayer are repeatedly confesion faith of worship A God. There are 2 element Factors in prayer in hidden heart :
1. Faith who have invisible power and form
2. True Knowledges to Know God who is worshipped and Prayer to Him according God's own wills wants to be worshipped. These are Area The Descriptions of God in minds are limited in boundaries attributes of God.We Learn attributes of God by Learn and Read the the Nature...of course, there are BIG Differences between attributes of God compared attribute of His Creations/Beings.
Ex : Thermodinaymics are attribute State Equation, behind that Thermodynamics attribute ..there are attributes of God as causa who give influences behind causa-causa who are influenced

These 2 elemens are reacted in reactor/Hidden hearts to produce Spiritual Powers. The Powers To Open Hidden Worlds..Free fRom Cage darker worlds before...

More developed Power means More accessed hidden Worlds who have forbidden/cannot accessed because of The Death of Spirituality Power within that person before.

More Accessed means more life,more knowledge,more wills,more powers to learns More and NMore Infinitely...