Just a personal observation of prayer.

[krozar]

My intent is not to debate because there really is no gray area here to me. There is nothing abstract. However, due to the nature of the topic it belongs more in here than anywhere else and I know all you fucking losers will get into another quote orgy instead of really contributing to this thread; namely, killing yourselves.

If another such thread exists; good. This is my thread, which is a fundamental defining difference from any other thread.

So, in the name of the Lounge and DESU...

∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵∵

I am amazed every time I see people pray about such superficial things. A good example is at the start of a sports game. "Please God, let us win this lol." WTF?

Okay, here's the problem. People in the world by the millions are suffering. The recent quake in China killed thousands of innocent young children and forced countless families to agonize over this. So where is God?

The omnipotent and omniscient God is busy helping you win a god damn baseball game! GTFO. It's actually one of the few things that makes me literally angry!

I shouldn't be because I am atheist. I know there is not a God thinking: "okay... I'll make the other team lose!" But it's the idea that believers in God think that God is helping them while allowing millions of others to torment. Since Christians believe God is omnipotent and omniscient, such torment must be intentional due to the nature of "all-powerful" that comes with being omnipotent and pared with being all-knowing.

To me this is beyond arrogance! After every major game, such as the Super Bowl, it doesn't take long before some jackass says: "God was watching over us."

Fuck you. desu.

[Kickz]

Well we are Americans and all we care about is our sports, and if u pray u pray for what you care about. It kinda annoys me to, just like when a baseball player dies and they say "guess God needed a second basemen in heaven".

As for the "why God doesn't give a f*ck about us question", its been brought up many times, but the best way to phrase it I suppose is God is a non-interventionist, and basically religion says he will intervene on The Last Day.

[PC Chris]

Because there is no god? this seems more of a rant then a debate which I'm guessing is what you intended on in the first place.

People just like to think theres some higher power looking out for them, (them as in individual.) It's the same thing as this. A big catastrophe hits killing millions a few hundred survive. These people say "Oh we're blessed by god!" Then they go inside the church and prey and well the church collapses on them. (Irony...)

To be 100% serious, it's arrogant to believe that since something good happened to you it was the will of god, what makes you so special? that makes the 20 million children who starve to death so unfortunate as to not be allowed the same benefit of gods suppose kindheartedness. Or how about the homeless in America they don't deserve to be without homes and to go starving but they do.

It all just comes down to this idea that I'm blessed god must have helped me, rather then just thinking damn I was lucky. I hear we call that selfishness or maybe thats just being conceited I guess either word could work.

[krozar]

Originally Posted by kickzman

As for the "why God doesn't give a f*ck about us question", its been brought up many times, but the best way to phrase it I suppose is God is a non-interventionist, and basically religion says he will intervene on The Last Day.

But if that's the case, then why pray at all? The phrase "God was watching over me" is one with the belief that God was, in fact, intervening.

I don't think many Christians would buy the deist argument.

[zoeygirl]

Haha I always found this funny. Some people would swear to you on a bible that God is a Redskins fan. In retrospect it's the same thing as God apparently choosing sides in a war. 'Help us kill and defeat our enemy.' is in the same lines. But sports, well, I never got that. Although i found it amusing early on, I suppose it's become more self-greed than actual prayer to any good use. Wrong reasons most definitely. It's a human thing. Go figure.

[Rafcio]

I think it's related to the fact that the only place people learn to expect godly interventions are events involving familiar probabilities.

Sports games, gambling, exams, surgeries...

What do you expect? People praying for regrowth of limbs or world peace? Doesn't work very well with the confirmation bias.

[Cane_The9lives]

Question:How many times do you honestly think, when people say that phrase"Please god_______(Whatever) they are actually intentionally thinking of an actual god or being of immense power to help their team win a game, or accomplish somthing they desperatley desire or need?

Honestly, such phrases in this day and age hold as much religious meaning as the "oh my god phrase" which i would assume even people who dont believe in god will use. To people who dont believe in god its simply a phrase, and i myself when i still considered myself a catholic used it regularly without the religious understones.

There would be a situation where i would say"Please oh god" but half the time if not most of the time i wasnt actaully thinking of a god to grant me my hopes and wishes, i was just literally"Hoping" and believe it or not, the common phrase"oh god" or its many variations"Please god" "Oh my god" "No god" "God allmighty" is statisically used by the religious and no religious alike.

Seriously you are putting too much stock in a phrase that only has religious meaning when YOU ATTRIBUTE religious meaning to it.

Am i to understand that you have never in your life after you realized you were athiest, used one of the many variations of"oh god" i listed above krozar?
And if you have, then this thread is pointless....becuase you are being enraged by the very thing you do in which you dont even consider relevant at the time in which you utter the phrase.

Over half the time its just a phrase, a way of expressing an individuals hope for a desired outcome.

[X2thaU]

we chinese are pagans, god does not smile upon us

[krozar]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Honestly, such phrases in this day and age hold as much religious meaning as the "oh my god phrase" which i would assume even people who dont believe in god will use. To people who dont believe in god its simply a phrase, and i myself when i still considered myself a catholic used it regularly without the religious understones.

There is a huge difference between "..Oh my god!!" and actually saying that something is attributed to divine intervention and asking for divine intervention, especially when accompanied by prayer.

Seriously you are putting too much stock in a phrase that only has religious meaning when YOU ATTRIBUTE religious meaning to it.

This is not a matter of perception.

Am i to understand that you have never in your life after you realized you were athiest, used one of the many variations of"oh god" i listed above krozar?

OMFGWTFBBQ? In acronyms only. I avoid such infantile phrases IRL. If I use it on the Internet in such a context I will ensure that "god" has a lowercase "g'' and thus does not refer to the Abrahamic god.

And if you have, then this thread is pointless....becuase you are being enraged by the very thing you do in which you dont even consider relevant at the time in which you utter the phrase.

I find it relevant because of the sheer insensitivity and arrogance of claiming one's self to be a vessel of God's benevolence.

Originally Posted by X2thaU

we chinese are pagans, god does not smile upon us

I see no evidence of him trying. It's clear who's fault that would be.

But what this thread is about does leave the context of Christianity. Such arrogance has been expressed by Sharon Stone in the context of karma (Buddhism).

That is one of the problems I see with such arrogance. It suggests that bad events are divine actions, or more eloquently stated: punishment.

Another example is Michael Savage's comment after a quake in Iran that destroyed an entire city: they were "punished by God."

It's very dangerous thinking. It's one thing to be right or to be wrong as a human, but to be under the dillusion of being a hand of God is destructive.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by DESUTIME

There is a huge difference between "..Oh my god!!" and actually saying that something is attributed to divine intervention and asking for divine intervention, especially when accompanied by prayer.

My mates say"Please god, let this free kick be it" all the time and i know for a fact they are not literally asking god for a good ball bend or a goal, they are simply expressing their desire for this kick to go through, by using a certian phrase.

My contention is, how do you recognize when someone is actually attributing religious meaning to such a common colloquial phrase?

Originally Posted by Krozar

This is not a matter of perception.

Elaborate, how do you determine whether someone is actually using a phrase simliar to "Please god" "Oh god" in a literal sense?
Instead of simply being a figure of speech?

Originally Posted by Krozar

OMFGWTFBBQ? In acronyms only. I avoid such infantile phrases IRL. If I use it on the Internet in such a context I will ensure that "god" has a lowercase "g'' and thus does not refer to the Abrahamic god.

Sorry, i find that hard to believe.

"Oh my god" is one of the most commonly used phrases to express fear, or surprise.
And its many variations are also very popular with religious or non religious alike.

I'm sorry, but i just dont buy the idea that the religious implications register with you before you express surprise or excitement about a certian event blah blah, and thus you use a non religious(in anyway) phrase, i just dont buy it.

What i think you fail to realize is most of the terms people use to express "Exclamation" are of religious origin.

"Holy hell" "Go to hell" "What the hell?" "Im in hell"
"Oh god" "Oh my god!!!!" "What in gods name"
"Christ!!!" "Aww christ" "JESUS MARY AND JOSEPH!!!!"
"Damn!!!" "Damnit all" "Damn you!!!" Damn it to hell and back"
"Holy this" "Holy that" "Holy crap abraham hit me with a wiffle ball bat!!!!"

I can literally go on for pages, but my point is crystal clear, these phrases are no more religious than the speaker uttering them.
I reference them to make a point, they are equal to someone saying"Please god let them win" or somthing along those lines, becuase they are simply a phrase used to express desire, and are only religiously relevant when actually used in a religious context, or in a religious way(as in someone actually praying)

Originally Posted by Krozar

I find it relevant because of the sheer insensitivity and arrogance of claiming one's self to be a vessel of God's benevolence.

How does someone merely saying"Please god let them win" equate to that?
God allmighty this does not compute.
Oh im sorry, let me use a different phrase.

Holy cow that doesnt compute.

Heh, just cant figure a way of expressing exclamation without using a term that originated from the concept of religion.
Oh i got it.

OH MY GOSH!!!

Damnit!! gosh is supposed to be the more polite and less blasphemous form of "God" I just cant figure a way of using a normal non religious in anyway exclamation expression.

Which is why you claiming you dont use such terms is complete bullshit in my opinion.

[krozar]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

My mates say"Please god, let this free kick be it" all the time and i know for a fact they are not literally asking god for a good ball bend or a goal, they are simply expressing their desire for this kick to go through, by using a certian phrase.

My contention is, how do you recognize when someone is actually attributing religious meaning to such a common colloquial phrase?

Sincerity is something that typical humans can detect. There is an extraordinary difference between "please god.. let me get this kick" and a statement of sincerity. I seriously do not think that I need to explain fundamentals of sociology here.

Sorry, i find that hard to believe.

"Oh my god" is one of the most commonly used phrases to express fear, or surprise.
And its many variations are also very popular with religious or non religious alike.

I'm sorry, but i just dont buy the idea that the religious implications register with you before you express surprise or excitement about a certian event blah blah, and thus you use a non religious(in anyway) phrase, i just dont buy it.

Since I was quite young I made a vow to rid myself of bad speech habits. these include "ummmm...", "hmmmm," "...you know" (some people do that way too much and drives me nuts), "ya'll", and laughing when something is clearly not funny. I am very reserved IRL and I do evaluate all that I say before I say it.

As for surprise. I rarely vocalize it. I may jump or whatever, but vocalizing just not a reaction for me. Why this is, I don't know.

I have a lot of respect for stoicism. It often takes self-control and I find it related to having a greater locus of control, which is something closely related to discipline.

Just an hour ago, as I was going down the elevator to the ground level, it stopped a few floors down and a group of 3 blonds were boarding the lift. They were so busy working their trap and looking toward each other that they walked in, neglecting to notice me there. They were surprised because they expected an empty lift and just would not stop that annoying "girly" laugh. They could be very smart girls but it just rubbed off as mental immaturity. It's a common occurrence in any public environment and to me it is nails on a chalkboard.

We do have more control than we give ourselves credit for. It does take discipline.

What i think you fail to realize is most of the terms people use to express "Exclamation" are of religious origin.

But that's not the point of this thread. I am not referring to exclamations which are very easy to differentiate.

How does someone merely saying"Please god let them win" equate to that?
God allmighty this does not compute.
Oh im sorry, let me use a different phrase.

Holy cow that doesnt compute.

Heh, just cant figure a way of expressing exclamation without using a term that originated from the concept of religion.
Oh i got it.

OH MY GOSH!!!

Damnit!! gosh is supposed to be the more polite and less blasphemous form of "God" I just cant figure a way of using a normal non religious in anyway exclamation expression.

Which is why you claiming you dont use such terms is complete bullshit in my opinion.

You took this way off topic and I feel that you are missing the point of this thread. Maybe I should have used a bigger font and bright colors.

I said that I avoid such phrases but I did not say that I have never uttered them. I avoid any and all colloquial exclamations. Using it in the cultural-linguistic context is not in a religious context at all and to not merely insinuate, but to overtly express that I do; it is merely your failing in this thread--not mine.

My intent is not to debate because there really is no gray area here to me. There is nothing abstract. However, due to the nature of the topic it belongs more in here than anywhere else and I know all you fucking losers will get into another quote orgy instead of really contributing to this thread; namely, killing yourselves. - Me

I have been proven correct.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by DESUTIME

Sincerity is something that typical humans can detect. There is an extraordinary difference between "please god.. let me get this kick" and a statement of sincerity. I seriously do not think that I need to explain fundamentals of sociology here.

Uhh what? Sincerity is somthing that typical humans can detect?
Exactly what planet are you living on?(no offense, legitimate question), if sincerity was so easily detectable as you claim, then what use would be have for lie detectors? People would not be able to get away with lies, a lie could not be sustained thus lie detectors would be unnescisary.

Its not like you to accept such a naive idea, that sincerity is somthing normal humans can detect in general. This is just not the case, actors all across the globe would be out of a job if it was, becuase in essence they master the art of the lie, or deception, or pretending to be somthing they are not.

I could tell you i'm an athiest with the straightest of faces, and the coolest of resolves..i ofcourse would be lying but how can you honestly tell that i am? if i give off no signs that im lying.

Originally Posted by Krozar

Since I was quite young I made a vow to rid myself of bad speech habits. these include "ummmm...", "hmmmm," "...you know" (some people do that way too much and drives me nuts), "ya'll", and laughing when something is clearly not funny. I am very reserved IRL and I do evaluate all that I say before I say it.

I'm not saying thayt you dont think before you act, or think before you speak. What i am saying is i find it unlikely that you would do this to such an extreme that you would catch yourself, even in state of shock or surprise (in which case you generally are not thinking of what you are going to say wrather than what you are witnessing) and literally prevent yourself from using such phrases as "Oh my god" or"Holy cow" or "Jesus christ" "Damn". It just doesnt seem practical, probability is completly againts you.

Originally Posted by Krozar

As for surprise. I rarely vocalize it. I may jump or whatever, but vocalizing just not a reaction for me. Why this is, I don't know.

Well forgive me if i dont believe this, becuase such things as laughter works on the same priniciple, a response from seeing somthing amusing...and if you are going to sit there and tell me you dont respond with laughter during somthing funny, then i definitely dont believe a word you are typing.

Originally Posted by Krozar

I have a lot of respect for stoicism. It often takes self-control and I find it related to having a greater locus of control, which is something closely related to discipline.

I dont.

Pain and the way you respond to that pain makes up a part of your character.
Pain also reminds you of the significance of your existance, how you are here and you have the pain to prove it. Not only is life about pain, but its also about pleasure, enjoyment....if you dont derive any sort of satisfaction from life then your life is pretty much meaningless.

Originally Posted by Krozar

Just an hour ago, as I was going down the elevator to the ground level, it stopped a few floors down and a group of 3 blonds were boarding the lift. They were so busy working their trap and looking toward each other that they walked in, neglecting to notice me there. They were surprised because they expected an empty lift and just would not stop that annoying "girly" laugh. They could be very smart girls but it just rubbed off as mental immaturity. It's a common occurrence in any public environment and to me it is nails on a chalkboard.

Their laugh is nothing more than one aspect of their personality. Somthing observable that can differenciate them from others. Not only does a life also define you, but what you are laughing all, also helps describe who you are. You laught at one thing, someone right besides simply sits there bored and completly unamused. Your laughter expresses your sense of humor.

You percieve such things as mental immaturity perhaps becuase of the supposed annoying nature of the girls, or your perceptions on what consitutes mental imaturity.

Laughter is simply the outcome of amusement that cannot be witheld.

Originally Posted by Krozar

We do have more control than we give ourselves credit for. It does take discipline.

Sure, if you are wanting to obtain enlightenment through the manner of bhuddism.
But not everybody wants to be so vacant of exuberance, to many its not an appealing lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Krozar

But that's not the point of this thread. I am not referring to exclamations which are very easy to differentiate.

No they are not, actions of another can always be misinterpreted.
You can never truely know the sincerity of a human being, unless you are capable of reading minds.

Originally Posted by Krozar

I said that I avoid such phrases but I did not say that I have never uttered them. I avoid any and all colloquial exclamations. Using it in the cultural-linguistic context is not in a religious context at all and to not merely insinuate, but to overtly express that I do; it is merely your failing in this thread--not mine.

My intent is not to debate because there really is no gray area here to me. There is nothing abstract. However, due to the nature of the topic it belongs more in here than anywhere else and I know all you fucking losers will get into another quote orgy instead of really contributing to this thread; namely, killing yourselves. - Me

First off, this thread has never strayed from the topic at hand.
You create a thread concerning phrases of religious origin, and how they are used in everyday life, over the trivial and mundane.

I introduce the idea that these phrases when spoken are more often times used as simple phrases, wrather than actual religious prayers. And that man phrases all people of all walks of life, backgrounds, religions blah blah use them almost on a daily basis. Why? becuase they are common expressions that no long hold religious meaning in general. Maybe a few hundred years ago uttering such phraes might have strict religious tie ins, but in this day and age these phrases are statisically minus the religious implications.

And i dont care if you didnt want to debate, it seems wrather silly to make a thread in the religious DEBATES section, and request no one debate with you.
If thats the case, then this is nothing more than a rant thread.
To my knowledge, threads merely to rant about somthing belong only in the lounge.

[ACCUNE]

I myself believe in Prayer in sports,not for a particular team to win but for the safety of all the players involved and to play a good game.When a person prays it they are suppose to pray according to the Will of God(bible) in the name of Jesus,believe that they have already received what they asked for and apply corresponding actions.What I mean by "corresponding actions" is similar to God holding out his hand with what you want in it,but you would have to walk and take it from his hand.Ex Praying for a job you would have to fill out an application.

[krozar]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Uhh what? Sincerity is somthing that typical humans can detect?

Exactly what planet are you living on?(no offense, legitimate question), if sincerity was so easily detectable as you claim, then what use would be have for lie detectors? People would not be able to get away with lies, a lie could not be sustained thus lie detectors would be unnescisary.

Its not like you to accept such a naive idea, that sincerity is somthing normal humans can detect in general. This is just not the case, actors all across the globe would be out of a job if it was, becuase in essence they master the art of the lie, or deception, or pretending to be somthing they are not.

I could tell you i'm an athiest with the straightest of faces, and the coolest of resolves..i ofcourse would be lying but how can you honestly tell that i am? if i give off no signs that im lying.

I see the confusion here. Re-reading what I wrote I should have said "sincere expression." You're right that people can and do lie. It's about the delivery. With that earnest tone: "I know God was out there guiding me" or something to that effect. God is a word that can mean different things. Clearly when the deity himself is invoked, then it has a strong meaning. "God I hope I get this goal" can have a different meaning with the word God. Especially if there is a pause between "god" and "I hope."

I'm not saying thayt you dont think before you act, or think before you speak. What i am saying is i find it unlikely that you would do this to such an extreme that you would catch yourself, even in state of shock or surprise (in which case you generally are not thinking of what you are going to say wrather than what you are witnessing) and literally prevent yourself from using such phrases as "Oh my god" or"Holy cow" or "Jesus christ" "Damn". It just doesnt seem practical, probability is completly againts you.

Amazing that people who often say "God dammit what the fuck!" when something happens will magically say something different when in an environment where it's unacceptable such as at work around customers.

It's not that difficult to do. You're not blurting out some random phrase in an incoherent language.