Omnipotence Negates Free Will

[Insin]

So a number of debates have popped up about the question of Free will in regards to an Omnipotent God. I figure we can take that topic and keep it here.

For the sake of argument, assume that if God exists, He is omnipotent.

An all knowing God, knows everything. Therefore, God would know what you are going to do before you do it. Because of that, you technically have no free will. Instead, you would only have the illusion of free will.

Certain religions claim you can have both, in an attempt to have their cake and eat it too.

If you decide to argue against my claim, please provide some evidence as to why you think so. Saying that "scripture says free will exists" is not proof enough. Please explain why.

[ACCUNE]

Your right in a sense that we do not have total free will, meaning a person cannot do anything he or she pleases.That is if the person wants to go against the plans of God,like if God has planned a certain willing person to do something a person can't just stop him.There are many variables that goes into though.This thinking is from the interpretation of scripture.Saying this means that we as Christians aren't permitted to say or do anything about any topic without basing it on scripture,because that is what God gave us to live our lives by.We were brought with a price.

[Sasori da God]

hmm, so by what im understanding god meant for all massacres rapes thiveng to happen, he willingly allowed phicotics cults serial killers and rapist to exist

[Digital Masta]

It's one of the things that has always prevented me from committing myself to Christianity. The thing I hate is when people try to rationalize omnipotence, since I can't fool god and he knows my true intentions then the minute he created me he knows whether or not I will be saved or not. So what's the point of my existence if he knows the end result ready?

hmm, so by what im understanding god meant for all massacres rapes thiveng to happen, he willingly allowed phicotics cults serial killers and rapist to exist

No he didn't mean for them to happen. He didn't make those decisions he just knew they'd occur.

[Apoo]

No, he made those decisions in the sense that he created everything. He put the people who would make these decisions on earth, affected their genetics, every circumstance surrounding their lives, every single choice they would make, are in fact influenced by a choice god made in creating the universe a certain way--everything can be traced back to god. The phrases 'everything happens for a reason' and 'God has a plan for everyone' are in fact incompatible with the notion of free will, and are very much more inline with an all-knowing, all-powerful god. Fact is, god foresaw every possible outcome of his would-be creation, and acted upon one of these predictions, therefore making everything happen according to his personal design-plan. Free will doesn't exist. And even if we forget this, even if we argue god grants us free will, one could easily argue that it is immoral to have created these beings (Hitler, Stalin, ect) in the first place having predicted all the wrongs they would do.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Tony

No, he made those decisions in the sense that he created everything.

This is false logic.

You attribute outcome z, to the original initiating of cause A, as if god was personally responsible for outcome z. This is flawed, god only controlled Cause A, outcome Z was the effect, but quite literally not of his direct doing, it was the doing of outcome b,c,d,e etc.

You attribute these decisions by god, as if they were decisions he made that had direct outcomes, instead of subsequent outcomes that were not of his doing at all.

God didnt choose for hitler to massacre jews, he chose for the universe to exist.
He gave the means in which anything could happen.
Supplying the means to facilitate any action, and then that action is taken by someone other than god, simply becuase of the means, is not a choice made by the individual who supplied the means.

It becomes a choice made by the second party.

But if you are going to speak in absolute terms, then yes everything that is is becuase of god.
But this is not inherently positive or negative.
You can say"oh god is bad" or "We dont have free will" But what point are you trying to make?

God is who he is, if we dont have freewill....so what, we are absoultely incapable of noticing this, we are absolutely incapable of comprehending it. We cannot sense whatsoever that we are being controlled, so if this cannot be done....how can one person honestly say we have no freewill?, when we constantly flex that freedom muscle on a daily basis.

Is it just an illusion of freewill? Maybe.....but can you honestly look at action made by you, and recognize it as an illusion?

If it's an illusion, then it doesnt change your situation one iota, even "knowing" that freewill is an illusion changes nothing, becuase you cannot percieve the world any differently.....you cant just walk down the road and say"oh well look at that guy, god is making him do that"

Furthermore, there is nothing immoral or moral about anything god has done.
If god is the alpha and the omega, the begining and end of everything...then nothing we say has any relevance whatsoever.
We can make boundless assertions on the character and morality of god, but he is all, and nothing...your existance, your perceptions, your logic means nothing, absolutely nothing.

So for what good it does(none), go ahead and say whatever you want about god.
But if you are talking about an omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent being....everything you say can and is voided by him.

[sarah042]

Omnipotence is having power without limits. Therefore and omnipotent being, God, would know the outcome of our actions before we are even aware of them and would have the ability to comprehend the consequences of these actions (karma). If omnipotence does in fact negate free will, why does it seem that we have options....if in fact the options presented to us are illusions then why would God go through all the trouble of presenting us with these options in the first place?

I agree with the point that there are horrible people dwelling on this planet and God had a role in placing them here and in their current situations but why is it that people could grow up in similar situations could turn out so differently?
It all boils down to our choices, which derives from the free will given to us by an omnipotent being.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

God didnt choose for hitler to massacre jews, he chose for the universe to exist.
He gave the means in which anything could happen.
Supplying the means to facilitate any action, and then that action is taken by someone other than god, simply becuase of the means, is not a choice made by the individual who supplied the means.

Since you are arguing the Christian God.

Yes, God created evil.

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

God is who he is, if we dont have freewill....so what, we are absoultely incapable of noticing this, we are absolutely incapable of comprehending it. We cannot sense whatsoever that we are being controlled, so if this cannot be done....how can one person honestly say we have no freewill?, when we constantly flex that freedom muscle on a daily basis.

It is possible to see whether we have Free will, and in fact, all the evidence tends to suggest we don't.

To put it simply, plunge a knife into someone's brain, can they make a choice? no, we don't have free will.

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Is it just an illusion of freewill? Maybe.....but can you honestly look at action made by you, and recognize it as an illusion?

Yes, i don't believe i have free will.

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

If it's an illusion, then it doesnt change your situation one iota, even "knowing" that freewill is an illusion changes nothing, becuase you cannot percieve the world any differently.....you cant just walk down the road and say"oh well look at that guy, god is making him do that"

Actually it does, if someone believed in free will, they shouldn't criticize any beliefs.

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Furthermore, there is nothing immoral or moral about anything god has done.
If god is the alpha and the omega, the begining and end of everything...then nothing we say has any relevance whatsoever.
We can make boundless assertions on the character and morality of god, but he is all, and nothing...your existance, your perceptions, your logic means nothing, absolutely nothing.

Actually, if there is a God, and here i am talking about the Christian God, our understanding of him would increase our ability to emulate and do what he wishes.

So in other words, no, logic is still important, as is our perception.

[Apoo]

To further on Majin's response to Cain, noting we are specifically talking about the Judeo-Christian god, then it is definitely immoral according to common christian belief to play a game with someone's life. Consider this scenario. You are a scientist capable of creating sentient life (some sort of cloning). Is it acceptable under common christian morality, to clone all of these life-forms (lets say dogs) and slaughter them right after, inflicting every torture imaginable to these creatures just for the sake of it, because you can and you are their creator?

Present this scenario to most christians, and they will tell you that this is immoral in their outlook. If God can foresee all these horrible things and still acts upon his prediction, creating things to happen a certain way, and subjecting all these people to suffering--he is a cruel and immoral god. To say that human morality doesn't apply to god is ridiculous, as this god in particular is the provider of this moral code. Either he adheres to it because the code is righteous, or he is not a benevolent god (as he lied to us and gave us a false code), but more akin to Descartes evil genius.

[sarah042]

Consider this scenario:
Let us be the omnipotent being who has created a maze. This maze is our design filled with many passages, some passages lead to dead ends, others to the glamorous prize. Along the passages we have placed obstacles, some seem insurmountable and others are not.
We know everything about this maze, its pitfalls, etc and yes we can foresee all the horrible things that could happen in it but that is why being omnipotent we would lay down rules (in this case hints, this be your conscience) to reach the pot of gold at the end.
If people were introduced to this maze and along they way they made choices that led them to dead ends or to hurting others to achieve their own goals, are we (the makers of this maze) responsible for their actions? Are we responsible since we knew of possible outcomes in taking certain pathways, in my opinion we are not responsible since we have provided them with 'hints' as to which choices to make.
Life is akin to a maze, we are presented with pathways and we make choices as to which pathway to follow. Free will could be an illusion, since you could argue that following these hints takes away free will, but we would still have the choice to follow the advice or ignore it. And in that case would that not be considered free will.

[Apoo]

Originally Posted by sarah042

Consider this scenario:
Let us be the omnipotent being who has created a maze. This maze is our design filled with many passages, some passages lead to dead ends, others to the glamorous prize. Along the passages we have placed obstacles, some seem insurmountable and others are not.
We know everything about this maze, its pitfalls, etc and yes we can foresee all the horrible things that could happen in it but that is why being omnipotent we would lay down rules (in this case hints, this be your conscience) to reach the pot of gold at the end.
If people were introduced to this maze and along they way they made choices that led them to dead ends or to hurting others to achieve their own goals, are we (the makers of this maze) responsible for their actions? Are we responsible since we knew of possible outcomes in taking certain pathways, in my opinion we are not responsible since we have provided them with 'hints' as to which choices to make.
Life is akin to a maze, we are presented with pathways and we make choices as to which pathway to follow. Free will could be an illusion, since you could argue that following these hints takes away free will, but we would still have the choice to follow the advice or ignore it. And in that case would that not be considered free will.

Answer me something, Can a human act in a way which god has not foreseen? We'll go from there.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Majin

Since you are arguing the Christian God.

Yes, God created evil.

Where did i contest that?

Originally Posted by Majin

It is possible to see whether we have Free will, and in fact, all the evidence tends to suggest we don't.

No there is absolutely no empirical evidence that shows we dont have freewill.

Originally Posted by Majin

To put it simply, plunge a knife into someone's brain, can they make a choice? no, we don't have free will.

I fail to see the analogy.

Originally Posted by Majin

Yes, i don't believe i have free will.

Are you refferring the scenerio of an omnipotent god, or do you honestly believe you dont have free will?

Eitherway, there is no empirical evidence that suggest you dont have free will.
There is however, empirical evidence that suggests you do.

Originally Posted by Majin

Actually it does, if someone believed in free will, they shouldn't criticize any beliefs.

This is your personal opinion i take it?

Originally Posted by Majin

Actually, if there is a God, and here i am talking about the Christian God, our understanding of him would increase our ability to emulate and do what he wishes.

So in other words, no, logic is still important, as is our perception.

Not when it comes to an all powerful omnipotent god, what we think means nothing since he at will cant contradict every "Logical" deduction, assertion, induction or statement made about his existance and the content of his character.

Simply put, saying god is immoral for doing "X", is saying nothing about god.

Originally Posted by Tony

To further on Majin's response to Cain, noting we are specifically talking about the Judeo-Christian god, then it is definitely immoral according to common christian belief to play a game with someone's life.

However in the eyes of god, what he says is law...and if its not immoral in his eyes, then its not immoral. There is no entity above him, so what he believes quite literally becomes reality.

Besides, manipulating lives is what gods do.
He created our existance afterall.

Originally Posted by Tony

Consider this scenario. You are a scientist capable of creating sentient life (some sort of cloning). Is it acceptable under common christian morality, to clone all of these life-forms (lets say dogs) and slaughter them right after, inflicting every torture imaginable to these creatures just for the sake of it, because you can and you are their creator?

That hardly compares to any scenerio of which god is apart of.

I as a human cannot simply make somthing moral, and have that become absolute reality...so it is immoral for human standards.
The final judgement on whats moral and immoral rest solely within his mind.
So even though what we percieve of god may seem to be immorality, our perceptions are of no consiquence to a being who can at will void our perceptions and make anything he wants or feels into a reality that we will all follow.

Originally Posted by Tony

Present this scenario to most christians, and they will tell you that this is immoral in their outlook. If God can foresee all these horrible things and still acts upon his prediction, creating things to happen a certain way, and subjecting all these people to suffering--he is a cruel and immoral god.

I cant stress this enough, yes you can easily say these things...but they are inconsiquental to god.
If he says"I'm moral no matter what i do" then he is moral, regardless of any past action or future action.

Concepts of morality and immorality do not concern god, i would think an almighty being doesnt like to look at anything through black and white ideas(moral or immoral, right and wrong) he doesnt have to be placed into one of those catagories, becuase he was the one who created them, if he was so inclined, he could place himself above those concepts.

Originally Posted by Tony

To say that human morality doesn't apply to god is ridiculous, as this god in particular is the provider of this moral code.

Wouldnt being susceptible to labels such as "Good" "Bad" "Moral" or "Immoral" lessen his omnipotence?

You mean to tell me an omnipotent god cant place himself above those catagories?
If thats the case, then he is not omnipotent.
However insins first post clearly states for arguements sake, that the god in question is omnipotent.

God doesnt have to be susceptible to any label or idea, becuase he has the power to rise above them, void the ideas.

Originally Posted by Tony

Either he adheres to it because the code is righteous, or he is not a benevolent god (as he lied to us and gave us a false code), but more akin to Descartes evil genius.

Again, whats rightous to us can be made into the complete opposite by the mere will of god.
All you can say about god is"he can be________" an omnipotent being is nothing you claim if he doesnt want it.

[sarah042]

As stated earlier - humans would not be able to act in a way that God has not foreseen. In fact God, being omnipotent, would be able to see all of our possible choices. And in every situation a person would have choices, whether they acknowledge them or not is another story. But this does not negate from the fact that we could choose, which is in fact what free will is about.

Free will is the capacity of rational beings in choosing a course of action from among various alternatives.

Hence the main question is whether or not we are supplied with various alternatives.
A person has alternatives and they exercise their free will nearly every moment in their lives. For example, this morning I had a choice, I could have slept in 10 minutes later or gotten up and finished my homework. I knew the consequences of sleeping in but yet I choose to do so. Also right now I'm exercising my free will of choosing to reply to your post versus finishing my assignment. (Okay I know that I'm a really bad student ). But the fact remains that there are alternatives!
There are some situations in which we may not be able to comprehend our alternatives, but that does not mean they don't exist.

As to the fact that there are muderers and rapists, they chose their own path. God has given us an opportunity (life) and what we choose to do with it is up to us. They are aware that if they are not punished in this life they would be ultimately punished by God. (The saying of if you live by the sword you'll die by the sword pops into my mind). God is not to blame for some misusing their opportunity.

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I had a feeling someone would pose that question

[Apoo]

Cane:
An omnipotent god can definitely place himself above these 'categories', but if this god is the christian god, it would make him a liar. He provided a moral code for humans to follow, if god places himself above this code, then he simply lied when he gave these moral laws. If God tells us that raping is wrong, but he himself doesn't view it as wrong, then he simply was deceiving us when he said it was wrong in the first place. It means that god cannot be trusted, if he's lying about one thing, he can be lying about a lot of things. In fact, whose to say he's not lying for the sake of his own amusement?

Evil daemon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

God can go against what he preset as moral, it won't affect his omnipotence, but then we can bring into question the premise of benevolence as Christianity applies it to god. In essence, the problem of evil all over again. This time around, I was arguing that an all loving god would not create beings (his children) knowing of the horrors that awaited them in life. This can be extended to arguing that God would not create any being that he knew was going to end up him hell. Being god, he knows everyone who will go to hell before he even creates them. I would question why would an all-loving being subject his children to eternal torture. What kind of sin warrants an eternity of torture?

[Insin]

Originally Posted by sarah042

As stated earlier - humans would not be able to act in a way that God has not foreseen. In fact God, being omnipotent, would be able to see all of our possible choices. And in every situation a person would have choices, whether they acknowledge them or not is another story. But this does not negate from the fact that we could choose, which is in fact what free will is about.

Free will is the capacity of rational beings in choosing a course of action from among various alternatives.

Hence the main question is whether or not we are supplied with various alternatives.
A person has alternatives and they exercise their free will nearly every moment in their lives. For example, this morning I had a choice, I could have slept in 10 minutes later or gotten up and finished my homework. I knew the consequences of sleeping in but yet I choose to do so. Also right now I'm exercising my free will of choosing to reply to your post versus finishing my assignment. (Okay I know that I'm a really bad student ). But the fact remains that there are alternatives!
There are some situations in which we may not be able to comprehend our alternatives, but that does not mean they don't exist.

As to the fact that there are muderers and rapists, they chose their own path. God has given us an opportunity (life) and what we choose to do with it is up to us. They are aware that if they are not punished in this life they would be ultimately punished by God. (The saying of if you live by the sword you'll die by the sword pops into my mind). God is not to blame for some misusing their opportunity.

---------------------------------------------------------
I had a feeling someone would pose that question

The problem is that you are arguing the illusion of free will.

Your maze analogy didn't work, because even though we have different paths we could take, God still knows exactly which one we take. So you analogy is actually incorrect, because there is only one path we are going to take, and God knows it.

The illusion of free will is not the same as free will. It feels like free will though, because we have no knowledge of the future. Saying that free will is an illusion is really a technicality argument at best though. Because you have no knowledge of the future, you still have some sort of responsibility for your actions and "choices".

However, the real implication of the argument for the illusion of free will is that it suggests that we are damned or saved from the start. God created the rapist, and the murderer, and knew that they would turn out like that. If you are damned, God knew long before you were born. It seems like you are choosing your future, but in reality, it's preset.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Tony

Cane:
An omnipotent god can definitely place himself above these 'categories', but if this god is the christian god, it would make him a liar. He provided a moral code for humans to follow, if god places himself above this code, then he simply lied when he gave these moral laws.

You expect an almighty god to follow the moral code he gave specificaly to humans?
he wouldnt be a liar, becuase he is not renigging on anything, that morality code was set for humans.

he reserves the right of judgment.

Originally Posted by Tony

If God tells us that raping is wrong, but he himself doesn't view it as wrong, then he simply was deceiving us when he said it was wrong in the first place.

God doesnt have to follow the moral code he placed upon us, he is god, he is above it.
But that doesnt negate the code, becuase it still pertains to us mortal humans.

Originally Posted by Tony

It means that god cannot be trusted, if he's lying about one thing, he can be lying about a lot of things. In fact, whose to say he's not lying for the sake of his own amusement?

Whats the point in saying he cant be trusted?
You cant truely know an omnipotent god to begin with, so trusting him is left up to the ones who feel they can.

Originally Posted by Tony

God can go against what he preset as moral, it won't affect his omnipotence, but then we can bring into question the premise of benevolence as Christianity applies it to god. In essence, the problem of evil all over again. This time around, I was arguing that an all loving god would not create beings (his children) knowing of the horrors that awaited them in life.

I wouldnt consider a god"Omnipotent" if he was incapable of being belligerant.
So he is both(whenever he chooses)

Originally Posted by Tony

This can be extended to arguing that God would not create any being that he knew was going to end up him hell. Being god, he knows everyone who will go to hell before he even creates them. I would question why would an all-loving being subject his children to eternal torture. What kind of sin warrants an eternity of torture?

All loving contradicts omnipotence.
To be all loving means you cannot hate.
if god cannot hate, then he is not omnipotent.

God is loving, and hating.
But at the same time, neither.