Parents charged for not helping dying daughter

[Dauragon13]

In my relagion you pray for ALLAH to save your child at the same time you call the doctor for him

the doctor treat him and you pray that ALLah will make the doctor treat him

misunderstanding of your relagion is the thing that makes alot of problems


the lil lub your example is the best answer that can be said

and I am studing medicine so please do not hate me beside I agree with you that the disease that your immune system can fight is the disease which you do not need a drug for

[Rafcio]

Having faith the size of a mustard seed which would allow you to move mountains and nothing being impossible for you.
Abraham being commanded by God to offer his son, which turned out to be a test of faith.
Countless other passages promoting blind trust in god, sacrifice, everything being possible if your faith is strong enough, demonic possessions, godly tests...

Oh no no. It's not a misunderstanding of their religion. In fact, they have shown to follow their religion more closely and had much stronger faith than most.
The real cause of problems is that there's a direct relationship between intensity of the belief in fairy tales and people committing insane actions.

You guys simply don't accept these specific insane beliefs on which to act on and therefore are less destructive. Not much of a high ground to talk down on these people to be honest. Especially considering that if reasonable people didn't believe in magic, neither would people like them. I bet that the grandparents who raised these misguided people were your average Christians. Religious people in overall are indirectly responsible for events like this for spreading the insane beliefs.
Luckily, most religious people put their common sense before religion when it comes to the health of their own children.


It's The Three Little Pigs story happening here. They've build their world view using straws. You guys are still using an alarming amount of wood. Hopefully yours won't crumble for a few generations.


/End rant.

[Bara]

Moved to RD with the last post since that is now where this discussion will be going.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Rafcio

Having faith the size of a mustard seed which would allow you to move mountains and nothing being impossible for you.
Abraham being commanded by God to offer his son, which turned out to be a test of faith.
Countless other passages promoting blind trust in god, sacrifice, everything being possible if your faith is strong enough, demonic possessions, godly tests...

Oh no no. It's not a misunderstanding of their religion. In fact, they have shown to follow their religion more closely and had much stronger faith than most.
The real cause of problems is that there's a direct relationship between intensity of the belief in fairy tales and people committing insane actions.

You guys simply don't accept these specific insane beliefs on which to act on and therefore are less destructive. Not much of a high ground to talk down on these people to be honest. Especially considering that if reasonable people didn't believe in magic, neither would people like them. I bet that the grandparents who raised these misguided people were your average Christians. Religious people in overall are indirectly responsible for events like this for spreading the insane beliefs.
Luckily, most religious people put their common sense before religion when it comes to the health of their own children.


It's The Three Little Pigs story happening here. They've build their world view using straws. You guys are still using an alarming amount of wood. Hopefully yours won't crumble for a few generations.


/End rant.

Easy there don quixote, are you saying religious people in general are responsible for people like this?

How can you justify such a baseless assertion?

[Rafcio]

It's hard to point out exactly how much people are to blame. It depends on the individual. Some religious people actually manage their beliefs responsibly. Nonetheless, it is these parents' parents, pastors and other significant figures that helped to create the circumstances for them to have such ridiculous believes. So yes, they are indirectly responsible for this child's death.

You never know for certain when your insane belief may influence someone to cause harm, so the moral thing to do is to not perpetuate unfounded beliefs.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Rafcio

It's hard to point out exactly how much people are to blame. It depends on the individual. Some religious people actually manage their beliefs responsibly. Nonetheless, it is these parents' parents, pastors and other significant figures that helped to create the circumstances for them to have such ridiculous believes. So yes, they are indirectly responsible for this child's death.

You never know for certain when your insane belief may influence someone to cause harm, so the moral thing to do is to not perpetuate unfounded beliefs.

But then how you do account for the fact that this doesnt seem to be a common occurence? If actual blame indirect or otherwhise can be attributed to the people who promote simliar beliefs(But not to such extremes to where they would preach "dont rely on physicians to help yourself or others") then why doesnt this happen all the time?

I dont think its a matter of blame(when talking about who raised these people) wrather its simply the individuals themselves who are to blame, and i see no real direct or indirect blame for the parent's "Parents" or the christian faith in general.

The fact that this was for the most part a religious anomaly says it all, these people shouldnt all of a sudden become the posterboard of the average religious family, nor should we look at their upbringing to blame while completly disregarding the character of the two individuals.

They are quite simply idiots, i dont care what religion you follow, if you simply sit there and base the life of your CHILD on faith, you are an idiot and crazy.
Faith is one thing, faith on a life and death matter is somthing completly different.
Now if we traced this back all the way to the grandparents, and saw they believed in the exact same thing their children did, then you can easily argue that its the upbringing, and the religious teachings that ultimately caused this.

But as i said, this was not a common occurence, as i have testified i know people who believe in faith healing, but still would not gamble with the life of their loved ones.
I have met many, many, many religious people in my life, who all shared in essence many similarities in their beliefs.....i cant speak for all to them, but a good amount of them i can wholeheartedly promise you would never do somthing so irresponsible.

My uncle back in belfast is as religious as they come, you name a scripture, he can tell you the page number, the line on the page, and sometimes the different translations from the other various bibles he owns. He can even summarize every book in the bible, i shit you not....and god knows they arent short either(i learned that the hard way) yet even such a devout catholic as himself has been to the hospital more times than i can count. Just recently he had heart surgery 2nd time in two years.

Now what is my uncle overlooking in the bible and all of its various teachings(or catholicisim in general), that these people embraced to the utmost extreme?

All im seeing is the blame game card being played and its totally counterproductive to the topic at hand. Blame the individuals who showed such retarded negligence yes, but using slick little phrases as"They are indirectly responsible" blah blah blah is achieving nothing but taking a jab at something that doesnt neccisarily deserves to be critiscized in this paticular point.

It's simple, these people were/are crazy.
Why? Becuase they allowed their child to die, and believed inaction would produce an action in which could perserve their child.
This is not the religious standard, becuase even the majority of religious people will seek medical help for anything that ails them in their daily life.

Faith is fine, but what i see is not a couple relying on faith, i see a couple insanely neglecting their child...and continueing to believe day after day as their daughters conditions worsens, as she pleads for someone to help, as the parents ignore the advice of others around them to admit her to a hospital, the crys of others that implored them to seek medical help went unanswered..this goes way beyond religion, into the realm of pyschological disorder.

These people have somthing mentally wrong with them, their faith was simply the medium, these people without religion would still be mentally disturbed. No rational human being religious or otherwhise could possibly deny everything, when the life of their child is on the line, in favor of faith.
The parents of this poor child are sick in the head, and IMO that is why this happend.

[Rafcio]

LOL essay.


Are Jehovah's witnesses insane because they refuse blood transfusions?

These parents are not insane. They are just the same as parents who treat their terminally ill children with homoeopathic medicine. Ignorance is not insanity (although it surely has its similarities).

Your uncle can go to the hospital and be a devout Christian, because the nonsensical nature of the bible allows you to come to different conclusions based on the contradictory passages. What doesn't Bible say?

There is a required 5th grade reading in Poland set in 19th century, about a group of women who tried to heal one of their daughters by putting her in the oven for a few holy marries.
Scientific outlook is something relatively new. This "anomaly" you speak of are in reality the current Christians who historically act in a much more secular way and don't follow their religion so blindly. At least not when it comes to their children's health. Hell, witch hunts were happening just 300 years ago in Europe and America and are still happening around the world (like in Saudi Arabia). Are all these people insane? I think insanity is just a convenient excuse. The reality is that sane people are committing these acts.

The reason why these occurrences are much more rare in some areas of the world is because we are decreasing our dependency on religion, which is what I'm advocating here.

[Insin]

@Rafcio

But that's rather inevitable, isn't it? There are always people who are prone to go an extreme end. There are people who would embrace atheism, yet their desire to so completely wrap themselves up in it would cause them to become hateful. Or, they might adopt a mindset of survival of the fittest to such a degree that they step on others and become undesireable members of society.

I guess what I am saying, is that you cannot get people to stop being irrational, even while embracing rationality. Certainly religion is not helping the situation, but I don't ever see it going away. Religious moderates will always defend their religion to the bitter end. When creationism is thwarted, they will jump to the sinking ship of intelligent design. People's desire to believe in something is what causes such religious convictions to remain, not the religions themselves which are outdated and flawed.

In many ways, human beings are still the primitive cavemen that exist in an unknowable and scary world. They need to believe in something more than their short existence. Not everyone could accept the possibility that nothing awaits them after death. It's not so much of convincing people that their beliefs are wrong, but getting them to accept the possibility that nothing exists beyond death. But as far as I see it, most people never will. Until human beings, as a whole, can disregard that intense need to believe in something, than I think all religions and atheism, will be prey to the most insecure people, and we will continue to see articles like this. Humans need to overcome the complete dependency in belief, before they can control their own destiny.

[Righteous Judgment]

such an easily avoidable death...

[Rafcio]

@Insin

I can see religion and other magical thinking going away. It's withering away right now, and the benefits are tangible. People today are much more educated and rational than they ever were, and the power of religious belief over people is weaker than ever before.

Of course the world won't become utopic without religion. Sure, some people will replace it with other nonsense. Your post doesn't change the fact that it's a step in the right direction, it just shows that religion is not the only thing we're better off without.

Being indifferent because people will be irrational one way then another is not the solution to the problem. The solution is to promote better alternatives to both of these irrationalities.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Rafcio

@Insin

I can see religion and other magical thinking going away. It's withering away right now, and the benefits are tangible. People today are much more educated and rational than they ever were, and the power of religious belief over people is weaker than ever before.

What glassese are you looking at the world through?
I cant see religion or any simliar type of thinking ever go away, it's lasted for centuries upon centuries, and dont kid yourself into thinking it has weakened....the majority of humans on this planet belong to and/or accept a certian type of religion, or at the very least are of the religious persuasion. It's statements made by dawkins(or atleast i think he said it) such as "We should strive to completly eradicate religion from the face of this planet" that achieve nothing but persuade through words.

In reality that is a very asasine statement, its quite literally not feasible.
It's not a statement of possibility, or inspiration, its pointless....its simply said for the sake of being said. Dont get me wrong i think dawkins is an intelligent individual, i immensly enjoyed reading the selfish gene...but in all honesty when it comes to realism pertaining t religion, this guy is seriously not living on planet earth.

But it ofcourse is people like him who continue to spread such an erroneous messege about ridding the world of religion, that continue to annoy me.
Religion is here to stay, not becuase of the fundmentals that make up the concept, but because humans are here to stay. Yes you could easily argue that humans could evolve past such philosophical ideas, i say such ideas regardless how rational or irrational they are, literally define us as a species.

We are fallible, and religion is both an example of our mistakes, and our achievements.

[renemon]

this is to fucked, i didnt even finish reading it becose of being to messed up, if i lived next to ppl like that, id nock the sence out of them wth a bat

[Rafcio]

Cane, are you trying to say that an average person today isn't less religious/superstitious than an average person three hundred years ago?
LOL.

As for religion completely disappearing, it's a bit of a straw man argument on your part. Of course there will always be some superstitious people. I didn't mean to say that superstition will completely disappear.

However sooner or later I see religions becoming the equivalent to what Astrology is today.

[Insin]

Originally Posted by Rafcio

Being indifferent because people will be irrational one way then another is not the solution to the problem. The solution is to promote better alternatives to both of these irrationalities.

I wouldn't say I'm indifferent. However, I am not too fond about the way certain atheists are taking the charge, like Richard Dawkins who wants to eradicate religion. There was an article posted in GD a couple months ago about an atheist convention where Dawkins received a standing ovation for that sort of speech, whereas the person I agreed with received a golf clap. The person I am referring to here is Sam Harris, who said that atheists should not try to dismantle religion, but instead emphasize reason.

I've never been one to want to shove atheism or science down people's throats, probably because I've had people try to force theism at me for most of my life. And I just don't see a gentle transition occuring with force. If atheists keep emphasizing reason, and new scientific discoveries keep improving the quality of life and dismissing hokey fairy tales, than perhaps the world can gradually come to a state of rationality on its own. However, I think the human being will always strive to believe in something beyond his comprehension and existence, so this transition could take quite a while.

[Rafcio]

As far as that conference goes I too agree more with Sam Harris than Richard Dawkins and his silly sounding militant atheism. Nonetheless, I don't feel that I shouldn't sugarcoat it either (and after reading some of Sam Harris's books I can say he is of the same opinion). Criticizing superstitions is synonymous with promoting reason. Criticizing religion is not the only and probably not the most effective way to go about it, but considering the original topic of this thread, I think such criticism is quite warranted here.

[Insin]

I've read some of his stuff too, and there's nothing I can say of the discrepancy between his speech and some of his writings. But that's neither here nor there.

At any rate, criticism is warranted here, for sure. It seems as if religion often contradicts reality, and this particular tragedy only highlights the extreme end of that.

[Cane_The9lives]

Originally Posted by Rafcio

Cane, are you trying to say that an average person today isn't less religious/superstitious than an average person three hundred years ago?
LOL.

Dont twist my words.
Also dont disregard the context of my post.

In relation to modern day religious worship and practices, the idea that religion is going away because the people of religious faith dont worship in the same manner, or operate the same way is asasine.

Looking to the past to judge the prevelance of an ever changing lifestyle is retarded.
Ofcourse its not going to be the same in many aspects, becuase the way we go about that lifestyle also changes.

Just because religion is not being addressed with the standards of then, does not equate into it somehow quickly disappearing in the now. The facts dont lie, the majority of humans on this planet belong to a religion, or are of the religious persuasion. The difference in how many are religious now, and how those values are expressed now, compared to then... is negligable.

Originally Posted by Rafcio

However sooner or later I see religions becoming the equivalent to what Astrology is today.

Astrology can be labeled a type of religion aswell.

[Rafcio]

Originally Posted by Cane_The9lives

Dont twist my words.
Also dont disregard the context of my post.

In relation to modern day religious worship and practices, the idea that religion is going away because the people of religious faith dont worship in the same manner, or operate the same way is asasine.

Looking to the past to judge the prevelance of an ever changing lifestyle is retarded.
Ofcourse its not going