Religion and Marriage

[SeventhSeal]

I don't think mixed marriages are necessarily bad, but it's probably best if both partners had similar beliefs, just to prevent arguments on matters of faith.

[Lokki]

Originally Posted by SeventhSeal

I don't think mixed marriages are necessarily bad, but it's probably best if both partners had similar beliefs, just to prevent arguments on matters of faith.

Or NOT to get married at all. Though many religion considers love with two people without marriage a some kind of sin...christianity, jewish and islam for examble.

[sokomonos]

to majin

There is a contradiction in Islam here, for Islam at the end lists Christians and Jews as polytheists.

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

there is no contradiction, yes in the end christians and jews are polytheists but as i told u in some rules islam diffranciate between the people whom were sent a book (christians and jews) and other invented religions like hindu ....etc
one of this rules as i stated is marriage

Originally Posted by majin
A Muslim male may marry a non-Muslim female who needs to then convert to Islam.

A female Muslim cannot marry a non-muslim male no matter what.

u r wrong in 2 points
1- u said males can marry non-muslim female and as i cleared this point only christians and jews not any non-muslim
2-who needs to then convert to islam ,no she does'nt need to convert she may stay as she is if she like , she is not forced to but most husbands will try to convence here to convert because life will be easier that way

u were right about the female muslim

about

Narrated Nafi’:
Whenever Ibn ‘Umar was asked about marrying a Christian lady or a Jewess, he would say: "Allah has made it unlawful for the believers to marry ladies who ascribe partners in worship to Allah, and I do not know of a greater thing, as regards to ascribing partners in worship, etc. to Allah, than that a lady should say that Jesus is her Lord although he is just one of Allah's slaves."

mmmm here is where my english will fail me

i will try to explain and i hope you get what i say
not every thing in islam is a must do or must not do actually rules of islam is divided to 5 levels
1- things u must do and if u didn't it is a crime (fard)
2-things u must NOT do and if u did it is a crime (maasia)
3-things u better do as if u did it u are rewarded but if u didn't u are not punished(mostahab)
4-things u better avoid as if u avoided it u are rewarded but if u did it u are not bunished (makrooh)
5-things with no diffrance in doing or avoiding like eating and sleeping (mobah)

the saying of Ibn 'umar meant that (in his openion) marrying a christian is
makrooh (4) so his openion u can marry them but i think u better not

[Syfer Van Hyden]

Originally Posted by Majin

A Muslim male may marry a non-Muslim female who needs to then convert to Islam.

A female Muslim cannot marry a non-muslim male no matter what.


In Islam, the child has no say against their parents if their parents want the child to marry someone.

Not true, dont get tradition and religion mixed up! So ur saying that my parents who didnt go according to their parent's plans r sinners???

Thats not true at all!! Im not sure what century ur living in, regardless, it was never ever like that!

Since when was Islam all about tyranny and enforces every single thing and not let ppl have say in their own personal life as far as love and whatnot is involved???

[Apoo]

Sokomonos: How are Jews and Christians polytheists? The doctrine of the trinity and all the angels/demons and saints of Judaism and Catholicism, in my opinion, gives a good case for the argument that these religions are not pure monotheism; but everytime I've tried to bring up this point I've been shut down.

Monotheism is mostly defined as belief in one supreme god, or belief in one deity. A deity is defined as:

any supernatural being worshiped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force

define:deity - Google Search

If this definition is used, the saints of catholicism, and the angles and demons of Judaism most certainly qualify as deities.

More over, why should Hinduism, which has a supreme creator, and many deity incarnations is wrongly classified as polytheism, when the incredibly similar Judaism, and the catholic denomination of christianity are not. And to some extents, Islam, and Protestant christianity as they also have other deities within their doctrine like angles, and the devil.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by sokomonos

there is no contradiction, yes in the end christians and jews are polytheists but as i told u in some rules islam diffranciate between the people whom were sent a book (christians and jews) and other invented religions like hindu ....etc
one of this rules as i stated is marriage

No, Muhammad allowed the marrying of Christians and Jews early on, but in the end he changed his stance and equated Christians and Jews to polytheists.

This can be seen for the fact that early in the Qur'an, he was favourable towards the People of the Book, but in the end disliked them.

2:113 And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.

And this changes.

4:48 Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin.

Originally Posted by sokomonos

u r wrong in 2 points
1- u said males can marry non-muslim female and as i cleared this point only christians and jews not any non-muslim
2-who needs to then convert to islam ,no she does'nt need to convert she may stay as she is if she like , she is not forced to but most husbands will try to convence here to convert because life will be easier that way

u were right about the female muslim

No, Muslims may not marry non-Muslims, not even Christians or Jews, they were once allowed, but not anymore.

Originally Posted by sokomonos

mmmm here is where my english will fail me

i will try to explain and i hope you get what i say
not every thing in islam is a must do or must not do actually rules of islam is divided to 5 levels
1- things u must do and if u didn't it is a crime (fard)
2-things u must NOT do and if u did it is a crime (maasia)
3-things u better do as if u did it u are rewarded but if u didn't u are not punished(mostahab)
4-things u better avoid as if u avoided it u are rewarded but if u did it u are not bunished (makrooh)
5-things with no diffrance in doing or avoiding like eating and sleeping (mobah)

the saying of Ibn 'umar meant that (in his openion) marrying a christian is
makrooh (4) so his openion u can marry them but i think u better not

Wrong.

Narrated Nafi’:
Whenever Ibn ‘Umar was asked about marrying a Christian lady or a Jewess, he would say: "Allah has made it unlawful for the believers to marry ladies who ascribe partners in worship to Allah, and I do not know of a greater thing, as regards to ascribing partners in worship, etc. to Allah, than that a lady should say that Jesus is her Lord although he is just one of Allah's slaves."


It is unlawful to marry polytheists, Christians and Jews were at the end, considered to be polytheists, Muhammad got that wrong, but the ruling stands.

Originally Posted by professional_wesker

Since when was Islam all about tyranny and enforces every single thing and not let ppl have say in their own personal life as far as love and whatnot is involved???

Since Islam enforced these things.

1.Muslims who try to convert out of Islam are to be killed

2.Pictures and music and dolls are forbidden (haram)

3. Christians and Jews are to pay a special tax and not display their religion publicly

4.Polytheists are to be killed.

5.Women are half as intelligent as men

6. Women cannot say NO to their husbands sexual advances

7.You can beat your wife.

[kafukai]

I don't want to argue with you all, but how many times I can said it.
Muslims females can marry with Jews(e.g. Iran, Israel) and with Christians (e.g. Europe, Africa) but those females are banned from their communities. It's not a sin, it's a temptation to sin(that's why they banned). And in th the past the communities wre killed them, but not anymore.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by kafukai

I don't want to argue with you all, but how many times I can said it.
Muslims females can marry with Jews(e.g. Iran, Israel) and with Christians (e.g. Europe, Africa) but those females are banned from their communities. It's not a sin, it's a temptation to sin(that's why they banned). And in th the past the communities wre killed them, but not anymore.

You need to make a distinction.

What Islam says is permissable (via Quran and Hadith) and what some Muslims do today.

Islam forbids female Muslims from marrying ANY non-Muslim.

Period.

[kafukai]

Originally Posted by Majin

You need to make a distinction.

What Islam says is permissable (via Quran and Hadith) and what some Muslims do today.

Islam forbids female Muslims from marrying ANY non-Muslim.

Period.

Not at all.
As I say what it fobid or actually prevent the sin as females might do, to convert their religion. But nowadays it's quite legal in some countries but not in the cultures.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by kafukai

Not at all.
As I say what it fobid or actually prevent the sin as females might do, to convert their religion. But nowadays it's quite legal in some countries but not in the cultures.

As i said your confusing Islam with societies, the Quran and Hadith strictly forbid female Muslims marrying non-Muslims, that countries allow it does not somehow change what the Quran and Hadith say.

[sokomonos]

to Tony :
Jews and Christians are polytheists because they woreship others with allah ,christians worship jesus while jews worship ezra

More over, why should Hinduism, which has a supreme creator, and many deity incarnations is wrongly classified as polytheism

because they worship buda or what ever they worship but ALLAh

And to some extents, Islam, and Protestant christianity as they also have other deities within their doctrine like angles, and the devil.

no islam never worship any one but ALLAH ,not angles not prophets not any one but allah , we respect them but not worship them big diffrance


to Majin :

No, Muhammad allowed the marrying of Christians and Jews early on, but in the end he changed his stance and equated Christians and Jews to polytheists.

thats wrong , i told u saying christians and jews are polytheists dosen't change the fact that muslim males can marry thier females , u have a proof that prophet Muhamad changed this bring it out

This can be seen for the fact that early in the Qur'an, he was favourable towards the People of the Book, but in the end disliked them.

2:113 And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.

And this changes.

4:48 Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin

.

i don't get it how this proves ur point
in the first (aya) Allah says that there is argument between jews and christians and every one of them is saying he is true and the other is wrong and on the judgment Allah will judge between them,so where does it state that they are not polytheists ??

so there is no change as the first one didn't say any thing about them not being polytheists

No, Muslims may not marry non-Muslims, not even Christians or Jews, they were once allowed, but not anymore.

you have to get me a proof for this because i have a proof it is permited to marry them

This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
5:5

Wrong.

Narrated Nafi’:
Whenever Ibn ‘Umar was asked about marrying a Christian lady or a Jewess, he would say: "Allah has made it unlawful for the believers to marry ladies who ascribe partners in worship to Allah, and I do not know of a greater thing, as regards to ascribing partners in worship, etc. to Allah, than that a lady should say that Jesus is her Lord although he is just one of Allah's slaves."


It is unlawful to marry polytheists, Christians and Jews were at the end, considered to be polytheists, Muhammad got that wrong, but the ruling stands

now thats way wrong
as i stated befor them being polytheists doesn't contradict marring them as the (aya) i posted 5:5 specialized the people of the book in eating thier food and marrying thier women

and your big mistake is

Muhammad got that wrong, but the ruling stands

my friend u don't give a word of prophet Mohamed companion (sahabi) as a proof that prophet Mohamed is wrong ,it is actually the other way
but here there is no contradiction as i told u Ibn 'Umar said this as it is (makrooh) in his openion
but EVEN IF he said this as it is forbiden (which is not true) with respecting him we say that is wrong as in islam there is no word above that of ALLAH and that of his prophet mohamed

Since Islam enforced these things.

1.Muslims who try to convert out of Islam are to be killed

2.Pictures and music and dolls are forbidden (haram)

3. Christians and Jews are to pay a special tax and not display their religion publicly

4.Polytheists are to be killed.

5.Women are half as intelligent as men

6. Women cannot say NO to their husbands sexual advances

7.You can beat your wife

1- yah this is true but notice that islam doesn't force any one to belive in it , so it is like that ( islam is about this and that and ...... and if you are to become muslim u can't convert so think carefully) u know that so if u are not convenced by islam simply don't become muslim we are not forcing any one to be

2-this is almost true but need detailed exeplanation
like only pictures of living things so that of trees, moon , water ..... are ok, dolls are the same, u are correct with music also

3-ya thats because they don't particibate in army

4- that is very wrong where did u get that from ??!!

5-that is also wrong and i think i know where did u get that from but i am sure u understand it wrong ( but i'll wait till u say it )

6- IF there is no execuse for saying no

7- yah but how can u beat here is diffrant from what u think , islam is not responsible for stubid men (sorry to call them men ) going and beating thier wifes till thet break thier bones and say allah said that
now that is big missunderstanding , as when prophet mohamed was asked about the beating stated in the (aya) he said to beat her without causing pain and avoide the face , and he said u may use (sewaak) which is a tree branch used to wash teeth and it is like a pencil in size,so imagine hitting even a woman with that will it cause any pain
and don't forget that the beating punishment is the 3rd stage u don't simply jump to it when ever your wife says no to any thing

thats alla for me

ah one more thing
kafukai don't get me wrong but please don't talk about things u don't know if you are a muslim u need to learn alot

[Majin]

Originally Posted by sokomonos

to Tony :
Jews and Christians are polytheists because they woreship others with allah ,christians worship jesus while jews worship ezra

Wrong, Muhammad thought Jews worshipped Ezra and Jesus, Catholics worship Jesus as part of a trinity, this is not all Christians, and Jews do not worship Ezra.

Originally Posted by sokomonos

i don't get it how this proves ur point
in the first (aya) Allah says that there is argument between jews and christians and every one of them is saying he is true and the other is wrong and on the judgment Allah will judge between them,so where does it state that they are not polytheists ??

I am demonstrating how Muhammad has changed his mind, in the first, he states that Jews and Christians judgement will be up to Allah, at the last, he states that Jewish and Christians being Polytheists, would not be forgiven by Allah.

They go to hell.

Originally Posted by sokomonos

my friend u don't give a word of prophet Mohamed companion (sahabi) as a proof that prophet Mohamed is wrong ,it is actually the other way
but here there is no contradiction as i told u Ibn 'Umar said this as it is (makrooh) in his openion
but EVEN IF he said this as it is forbiden (which is not true) with respecting him we say that is wrong as in islam there is no word above that of ALLAH and that of his prophet mohamed

No, the Qur'an stipulates that one can marry the people of the book, but later stipulates polytheists are not to be married.

Then near the end the Qur'an stipulates Christians and Jews as polytheists, therefore they could not be married, it also says they are going to hell, where before it was undecided.

This is reinforced by the hadith above.

Originally Posted by sokomonos

1- yah this is true but notice that islam doesn't force any one to belive in it , so it is like that ( islam is about this and that and ...... and if you are to become muslim u can't convert so think carefully) u know that so if u are not convenced by islam simply don't become muslim we are not forcing any one to be

Actually Islam did force people to become Muslims.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

In Islam, if you are shown the Qur'an, and dont become a Muslim, your supposed to be killed or you pay the jizya if your a Jew or Christian.

Originally Posted by sokomonos

3-ya thats because they don't particibate in army

No, the reason is of humiliation and being conquerred.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Originally Posted by sokomonos

4- that is very wrong where did u get that from ??!!

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Notice also that they are only not to be killed if they become Muslims.

Originally Posted by sokomonos

5-that is also wrong and i think i know where did u get that from but i am sure u understand it wrong ( but i'll wait till u say it )

The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind."
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/048.sbt.html#003.048.826

Originally Posted by Sokomonos

7- yah but how can u beat here is diffrant from what u think , islam is not responsible for stubid men (sorry to call them men ) going and beating thier wifes till thet break thier bones and say allah said that
now that is big missunderstanding , as when prophet mohamed was asked about the beating stated in the (aya) he said to beat her without causing pain and avoide the face , and he said u may use (sewaak) which is a tree branch used to wash teeth and it is like a pencil in size,so imagine hitting even a woman with that will it cause any pain
and don't forget that the beating punishment is the 3rd stage u don't simply jump to it when ever your wife says no to any thing

No, you can hit your wife provided it is not on the face.

That is the only limitation, for he hit Aisha on the chest.

"...He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?..."
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127

[kafukai]

Originally Posted by Majin

As i said your confusing Islam with societies, the Quran and Hadith strictly forbid female Muslims marrying non-Muslims, that countries allow it does not somehow change what the Quran and Hadith say.

You right a little, it's not written in the Koran and Hadith. But it's a new culture as developed at Muslims females to marry non-Muslims men it's illegal with Islamic law but countries allowed that, that's called pluralism.

[pygmalion]

well, i don't know much about other religions, but i'm lutheran (christian) and we can not marry a person from an other religion in church.. you may marry whoever you want, but not with the blessings from god (or the community). the catholics aren't that tight. there you can marry at least non-religious people, if they agree to raising the children as catholics (... in other words, the catholic part of the couple has to do the job). at least that's what i experienced (bad english?) here in central europe. .. but there are also ecumenical marriages between catholic and protestant. but i'm not sure how that fits into the general concept

[Maklawder]

well that is not right, because islam allaws a man to marry a Jewish and a chritian women and allaws a woman to marry muslim men only not out of any discrimination its just that the children usually follow there fathers religien, and they are the most important one in this

[Syfer Van Hyden]

^I agree. Yet however Maklawder, it also a requirement that the wife must convert to the religion that of the husband in Islam, sooner or later. But yes i agree, in our culture the child usually should follow the religion of the father, assuming that the wife did not convert to Islam at the time.

[narutobadsha]

ah, my good friend Majin, let me remind you something

Originally Posted by narutobadsha

proof from Islam?

We are all waiting for this from last 8 months or so. Are you going to provide us any evidence or will you accept your gross error publicly? Which one will you choose, the choice is yours! Let us first clear this and then i'll move on to debunk your other "scholarly" interpretations.